21 Sep 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneDo you see me saying it is okay with parents doing that, no!
So, would you also "fail to see why everyone here is upset" with parents who torture their children, have sex with their children, murder their children, etc.?
I've been very plain about my point, you suggesting I've okayed sex, torture,
and murder of children....I've never said anything remotely close to that, the only
thing I've been suggesting is that you don't force someone against their will to
either do or not do something lightly. I've been comparing the death of the
unborn to blood transfusions and have never entertained anything beyond that,
only your warped brain has taken my words and twisted them into those things.
Kelly
21 Sep 10
Originally posted by LemonJelloI see you value one over the other, but both are human life at different stages,
[b]With the killing of the unborn there are choices being made, with rejecting
blood transfusions there are choices being made, somethings we value above
life and with some choices we declare are more important than life. If we are going
to allow one, why not the other?
Sure, both cases involve human life. But in the case of abortion (say, earl ...[text shortened]... is no mental life. Do you not see this as a morally relevant difference between the two cases?[/b]
one you are okay with the other not. I think you and others here that are okay
with the death of the unborn have a line that you have crossed that has human life
ending each time it is done, and your complaining about another group of people
that can live a normal life providing they never have to have a blood transfusion,
beyond that they are placing themselves and their families at risk. You and those
like you who don't seem to value the unborn are without a doubt okay with the
deaths that are taking place each time someone kills one, due to the fact you do
not value those lives enough to protest.
Kelly
21 Sep 10
Originally posted by Conrau KWe differ on that point, as I pointed out earlier if you have parents that love and
I myself do not support abortion but I do appreciate that there is a significant difference between an abortion and, say, the death of an five-year old child whose parents refuse a blood transfusion. In the latter case, everyone agrees that the child is a human person and has the same rights as an adult. People's moral intuitions would be fairly consistent in this case.
want the life inside the mother they have no doubt that life has value, and you’re
applying a sliding scale of what has value for human life! That is pure evil in my
opinion, it comes from a warped value system that has polluted this world to the
point you can say it without thinking about what you are suggesting!
Kelly
21 Sep 10
Originally posted by KellyJayWhat is your position on capital punishment?
I see you value one over the other, but both are human life at different stages,
one you are okay with the other not. I think you and others here that are okay
with the death of the unborn have a line that you have crossed that has human life
ending each time it is done, and your complaining about another group of people
that can live a normal life prov ...[text shortened]... time someone kills one, due to the fact you do
not value those lives enough to protest.
Kelly
21 Sep 10
Originally posted by KellyJay🙄 I'm sorry to tell you that none of your inferences about my value set actually follow from the post to which you were responding.
I see you value one over the other, but both are human life at different stages,
one you are okay with the other not. I think you and others here that are okay
with the death of the unborn have a line that you have crossed that has human life
ending each time it is done, and your complaining about another group of people
that can live a normal life prov ...[text shortened]... time someone kills one, due to the fact you do
not value those lives enough to protest.
Kelly
You had asked, I thought, about what reasons a person might have for thinking the two cases (an abortion on one hand; the refusal of a needed blood tranfusion to a child on the other) to have different permissibility status, or something like that. Again, plausible reasons there could go to the possession (or lack thereof) of psychological properties that many people take to be relevant to the subject of moral personhood and moral considerability.
21 Sep 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75In the last 20 years, the rate of JW demographic growth has fallen from 8% per annum to just over 2%. Since you clock, in total, approximately 1.5 billion hours of proselytizing per annum, it seems like a modest return on your investment. There are a host of reasons a separatist apocalyptic blood-cult could gain in membership. Perhaps JW couples typically have a few kids. Perhaps JW efforts at proselytizing are effective in those parts of the world where folks are uneducated, semi-literate, and prone to the sort of magical thinking on which your scriptural "interpretations" rely. Perhaps your bizarre rejection of cultural assimilation, coupled with your deeply creepy beliefs, enforces the alienation of your fellows from the rest of the world, causing social reliance on your religious organization and driving down the rate at which JWs would otherwise leave the faith.
If this was child abuse then why does the Watchtower society grow by the thousands each month? Is it because ones that are honestly searching for the truth understand God's view on this matter and many thousands of those have children.
I believe that it is you and others do not see what god wants with your hearts.
Just my thought.....
Despite the tragedy of the even modest growth of your faith, this really isn't the issue here. That you can either persuade a few people here and there (but lots in Zambia!) to believe crazy things about blood does not somehow retroactively make those beliefs less crazy. It just means you've found some idiots, or bred them.
21 Sep 10
Originally posted by Conrau Kno that is absurd because i am free to exercise my own conscience!
I am not judging your conscience (at least, not at the moment.) I have simply asked you to clarify your moral beliefs about blood transfusions. It seems that you believe that moral judgments are exclusively private and that no one can interject their own moral beliefs. If this is so, presumably you must refrain from any moral commentary on other posters, on ...[text shortened]... against the organisation, would you accept this as a legitimate expression of their conscience?
21 Sep 10
Originally posted by Conrau Kyes one may accept blood fractions, for then it may be reasoned that it is no longer whole blood. Plasma contains between 52 and 62 percent whole blood, however it also contains, proteins, albumins, globulins, fibrinogen, nutrients, hormones, respiratory gases, electrolytes, vitamins and nitrogenous wastes.
As I understand, they do however permit the use of blood fractions (such as plasma.) The whole thing is just absurd.
For example as part of a treatment or therapy, a doctor might recommend concentrated amounts of a plasma fraction. An example of such is protein-rich cryoprecipitate, which is obtained by freezing and then thawing plasma. This insoluble portion of plasma is rich in coagulation factors and is usually given to patients to stop bleeding. Other treatments may involve a product that contains a blood fraction, whether in trace amounts or as a primary ingredient. Some plasma proteins are used in routine injections that can help to increase immunity after exposure to infectious agents. Nearly all blood fractions being used in medical applications consist of the proteins found in blood plasma.
it can readily be determined that isolating these elements and using them in regular treatments, immunisations, blood clotting agents etc etc no longer constitutes whole blood and a Christian is therefore free to exercise his conscience on what treatments he is prepared to accept and those which he will not. I would like to know what is the absurdity that you mention, for as far as i can determine, its a very reasoned and informed choice.
21 Sep 10
Originally posted by bbarrWhat does the Most Holy mean on your icon? Does it have special meaning? Does it give you some special permission to sound so non Christian? If you are a Christian would you not die for your faith and what you believe in?
In the last 20 years, the rate of JW demographic growth has fallen from 8% per annum to just over 2%. Since you clock, in total, approximately 1.5 billion hours of proselytizing per annum, it seems like a modest return on your investment. There are a host of reasons a separatist apocalyptic blood-cult could gain in membership. Perhaps JW couples typically ha ...[text shortened]... tively make those beliefs less crazy. It just means you've found some idiots, or bred them.
21 Sep 10
2 edits
Originally posted by bbarrmodest growth ???, since 1945 there has been almost a one thousand percent increase, perhaps a demographic chart shall help to allay your fears and that despite a purely materialistic outlook which has engulfed the west, whence the new Sunday suit is sneakers and a hoody and the new cathedrals of worship are the shopping malls!
In the last 20 years, the rate of JW demographic growth has fallen from 8% per annum to just over 2%. Since you clock, in total, approximately 1.5 billion hours of proselytizing per annum, it seems like a modest return on your investment. There are a host of reasons a separatist apocalyptic blood-cult could gain in membership. Perhaps JW couples typically ha tively make those beliefs less crazy. It just means you've found some idiots, or bred them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses
you must of course take into consideration the 40,000 or so who are removed per annum for sadly failing to keep the high moral standards expected of one professing to be a witness, for one reason or another.
21 Sep 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieRecent decades indicate a decline in membership growth, from 8% per annum to about 2-3% per annum in less than 20 years. The decline in growth has become more rapid since 1995, particularly in the Western world. In the United States, an academic study at Trinity College (Connecticut) based on a telephone survey (American Religious Identification Survey) was conducted in 2008, which reported an estimated 1.914 million adults in the US who self-identify as Jehovah's Witnesses.[5
modest growth, since 1945 there has been almost a one thousand percent increase, perhaps a demographic chart shall help to allay your fears and that despite a purely materialistic outlook which has engulfed the west, whence the new Sunday suit is sneakers and a hoody and the new cathedrals of worship are the shopping mall!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses
Some will notice this fact. What's happening? Why the slow down? Is it the times we live in?
Matthew 24:9-12 (New Living Translation)
9 “Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers.[a] 10 And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. 11 And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. 12 Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold.
Verse 12 explains this slowdown. The love or desire to serve God will slow down.
As Robbie pointed out this is a couple factors,
2 Timothy 3:4 (New Living Translation)
4 They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God.
This slowdown has been expected for many, many years and it is now happeneing.
21 Sep 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobiehas anyone asked you politely if it is your humble opinion that refusing a transfusion of blood for your child constitutes abuse or not. should child services step in and force you to allow the transfusion to take place?
yes one may accept blood fractions, for then it may be reasoned that it is no longer whole blood. Plasma contains between 52 and 62 percent whole blood, however it also contains, proteins, albumins, globulins, fibrinogen, nutrients, hormones, respiratory gases, electrolytes, vitamins and nitrogenous wastes.
For example as part of a treatment or ...[text shortened]... urdity that you mention, for as far as i can determine, its a very reasoned and informed choice.
and i am not being sarcastic or anything, i want your opinion.
21 Sep 10
Originally posted by ZahlanziAs you can see Zhalansi it is a highly emotive subject and the requests for opinions tended to be on purely hypothetical basis, what if your child, what if your wife etc etc, this again seems no different. Make no mistake about it, in the case of a minor, whether a parent wishes to accept a blood transfusion or not is practically irrelevant, for all its takes is two consultants to agree and the procedure is almost immediately effected. I say almost for there have been cases where the minor themselves have objected (a mature minor, say 15 years of age) and a court order was needed for them to comply. Happily in the case of an adult, we claim the right of self determination and will accept almost any other type of treatment, including blood fractions.
has anyone asked you politely if it is your humble opinion that refusing a transfusion of blood for your child constitutes abuse or not. should child services step in and force you to allow the transfusion to take place?
and i am not being sarcastic or anything, i want your opinion.
