Truth .. JW Style

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The point is that your position as indicated by the following statements is not really something that you actually support:
[quote]...who am I to tell
another their beliefs and standards are not honorable since they are not like
mine?...so again who are you to tell another their value system isn’t
worth while enough to honor... You feel you have the r ...[text shortened]... at is essential to the life of the child are not reasonably ensuring the welfare of their child.

Again, it is not a value system I agree with; however, if they feel that the blood
some how soils them, why should they be forced to into it? Going back to the
taking unborn's lives we allow that, and you want to complain about this? So we
can stop and say some choices are not worth allowing another to make, is that
what I'm getting from you, rights some how don't come into play if we value the
lives?
Kelly

Originally posted by Conrau K
Ok, so, using your conscience, do you think that it was morally impermissible for this mother suffering cancer to receive blood transfusions? Would you in a similar situation receive blood transfusions. If your wife decided to receive a blood donation in this situation, would you respect this as a legitimate judgment of conscience?

I am unsure why you in acy, does that mean your organisation no longer cares whether its members receive transfusions?

what is Conrau you are yet failing to understand? why should my conscience judge what is good or morally acceptable for another? i myself would not receive blood transfusions, for to me, in my case, personally speaking, it is, without reservation, morally unacceptable, for me! In the case of my wife, you naturally would need to ask her, herself. In the case of the lady in question, it is entirely up to her what she does with her own body.

in the case of our organisation, the consensus has been reached, that due to the sanctity of blood, its specified use in scripture and certain prohibitions placed upon its use, as you have described is not acceptable. I, you , or anyone else, as a free moral agent, may choose to agree or disagree with that stance, it just so happens, that based on the scriptural testimony and the dictates of my conscience, i agree with the stance. In the case of and use of blood fractions, it is not so clear and a Christian must make an informed decision what is acceptable to them, based on their knowledge of scripture, knowledge of the medical procedure, and the dictates of their conscience.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what is Conrau you are yet failing to understand? why should my conscience judge what is good or morally acceptable for another? i myself would not receive blood transfusions, for to me, in my case, personally speaking, it is, without reservation, morally unacceptable, for me! In the case of my wife, you naturally would need to ask her, herself. ...[text shortened]... owledge of scripture, knowledge of the medical procedure, and the dictates of their conscience.

what is Conrau you are yet failing to understand? why should my conscience judge what is good or morally acceptable for another? i myself would not receive blood transfusions, for to me, in my case, personally speaking, it is, without reservation, morally unacceptable, for me! In the case of my wife, you naturally would need to ask her, herself. In the case of the lady in question, it is entirely up to her what she does with her own body.

I am surprised that you articulate such a strong version of moral relativism. Do you concede this relativism on issues like rape, murder, pedophilia, extortion and slave-trading?

in the case of our organisation, the consensus has been reached, that due to the sanctity of blood, its specified use in scripture and certain prohibitions placed upon its use, as you have described is not acceptable. I, you , or anyone else, as a free moral agent, may choose to agree or disagree with that stance, it just so happens, that based on the scriptural testimony and the dictates of my conscience, i agree with the stance. In the case of and use of blood fractions, it is not so clear and a Christian must make an informed decision what is acceptable to them, based on their knowledge of scripture, knowledge of the medical procedure, and the dictates of their conscience.

But the issue is not whether a free agent can act otherwise or reach a different moral conclusion. None of that is controversial. The issue is whether it is morally wrong for a mother suffering cancer to receive transfusions in the course of her treatment. Irrespective of her conscience, is this act morally wrong? Now you may concede the right of her conscience to reach an alternative conclusion, but aren't you still basically saying that her choice was a moral evil?

Now you say that it is ultimately the right of your wife to decide this issue which so intimately concerns her body. That wasn't the issue. I would hope that your understanding of marriage conceded that basic right. The question remains, however, Would you be concerned? Would you discourage her? Surely if her salvation is at risk, you would indeed have a moral obligation to dissuade her?

Originally posted by Conrau K
what is Conrau you are yet failing to understand? why should my conscience judge what is good or morally acceptable for another? i myself would not receive blood transfusions, for to me, in my case, personally speaking, it is, without reservation, morally unacceptable, for me! In the case of my wife, you naturally would need to ask her, herself. In t Surely if her salvation is at risk, you would indeed have a moral obligation to dissuade her?[/b]

you should not be surprised, we are not jacks which sit in boxes waiting to surprise the unwary. God is judge. Therefore for me to issue a moral dictate of whether someone's else's actions are morally justified or not, or whether it agrees with the dictates of my own conscience is not possible, because i would then be putting myself in the position of God, an act for which i am neither qualified for nor worthy.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]what is Conrau you are yet failing to understand? why should my conscience judge what is good or morally acceptable for another? i myself would not receive blood transfusions, for to me, in my case, personally speaking, it is, without reservation, morally unacceptable, for me! In the case of my wife, you naturally would need to ask her, herself. In t ...[text shortened]... Surely if her salvation is at risk, you would indeed have a moral obligation to dissuade her?

How many have died in the past for standing up to their belief and love for their God and the Christian principles?
Just because our view of the use of blood is different then most, does that change the fact that we are willing to die for our belief? Does that make being a Christian wrong?
Should not all Christians feel the same? Have there not been thousands of Christians put to death over the centuries for their faith in God?
Would you are any other Christian be willing to die for your beliefs?
Yes we all have different thoughts and ideas of what Jesus said and taught. No Christian religions all believe the same. So from the point that we are shown from the Bible that we should be willing to lose our life not only for what we believe to be truth but even lose it for a brother.
And in the big picture this life is only temporary as God has promised a resurrection to all.
Abraham knew this when he was willing to offer up his own son. If Abraham were here today and we were going to witness him killing his own son I wonder how most here would react to that? Would you try to understand the big picture or react in a way that would not be Christian?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_martyrs

Originally posted by KellyJay
Again, it is not a value system I agree with; however, if they feel that the blood
some how soils them, why should they be forced to into it? Going back to the
taking unborn's lives we allow that, and you want to complain about this? So we
can stop and say some choices are not worth allowing another to make, is that
what I'm getting from you, rights some how don't come into play if we value the
lives?
Kelly

Again, it is not a value system I agree with; however, if they feel that the blood
some how soils them, why should they be forced to into it?

I understand that you don't agree with their value system. That wasn't the point. Why do you continue to ask this type of question when I've already addressed it?

Once again, the basis for the answer to these type questions is simple: Parents must reasonably ensure the welfare of their child. Parents that would deny a blood transfusion that is essential to the life of the child are not reasonably ensuring the welfare of their child. I'll also add that intervention is required in situations where parents do not reasonably ensure the welfare of their child.

Perhaps if you address the above statements directly we can get somewhere.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you should not be surprised, we are not jacks which sit in boxes waiting to surprise the unwary. God is judge. Therefore for me to issue a moral dictate of whether someone's else's actions are morally justified or not, or whether it agrees with the dictates of my own conscience is not possible, because i would then be putting myself in the position of God, an act for which i am neither qualified for nor worthy.

So are you saying that you are unable to judge the morality of anyone's actions whatsoever? If you answer yes, I will hold you too it. You will have basically disqualified yourself from commentary on this forum.

Originally posted by galveston75
How many have died in the past for standing up to their belief and love for their God and the Christian principles?
Just because our view of the use of blood is different then most, does that change the fact that we are willing to die for our belief? Does that make being a Christian wrong?
Should not all Christians feel the same? Have there not been ...[text shortened]... or react in a way that would not be Christian?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_martyrs

So you think it is a good sacrifice for a mother of three to die? Look, I do appreciate that some people are prepared to die for their beliefs and I agree sometimes it can be noble. Some women whose pregnancy poses a risk to their life would rather die than procure an abortion. I respect that. I do not see anything however noble about needlessly refusing blood transfusions. It would be quite selfish.

Originally posted by Conrau K
So are you saying that you are unable to judge the morality of anyone's actions whatsoever? If you answer yes, I will hold you too it. You will have basically disqualified yourself from commentary on this forum.

No, i am perfectly capable of rendering a judgement concerning another's actions , even my own, however, because it is rendered through the faculty of conscience, it has relevance to no one but me. Whether this disqualifies me for commenting on this forum i cannot say, but it seems rather narrow minded to restrict spirituality to a purely moral essence.

Originally posted by Conrau K
So you think it is a good sacrifice for a mother of three to die? Look, I do appreciate that some people are prepared to die for their beliefs and I agree sometimes it can be noble. Some women whose pregnancy poses a risk to their life would rather die than procure an abortion. I respect that. I do not see anything however noble about needlessly refusing blood transfusions. It would be quite selfish.

Don't get us wrong by any means. A death of ones child I think would be the hardest thing a human could go thru. Please don't paint us as some inhuman people. And we're not after nobility or anything of the sort and certianly nothing to do with being selfish. Me giving up my child to death would be sick if it were only for selfish reasons.
But looking at the big picture of what God warns us to obstain from blood and even just the health problems that can arise from taking someone else blood into you body is a big risk. But our understanding of how God feels about blood and what it represents is even more important.
As the scriptures show that have been posted here is God views ones soul as being in the blood. If we take in blood from another person, it would in affect be taking in his soul.
Life is a gift from God and one he expects us to honor and respect they way he gave it to us.
And by remaining faithful to him and knowing he promosses a resurrection, we have faith we will see our loved ones again. So if one is laking in the faith like Abraham had, then yes it would be hard to accept this issue.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No, i am perfectly capable of rendering a judgement concerning another's actions , even my own, however, because it is rendered through the faculty of conscience, it has relevance to no one but me. Whether this disqualifies me for commenting on this forum i cannot say, but it seems rather narrow minded to restrict spirituality to a purely moral essence.

But you are effectively saying you cannot comment on the morality of anyone else. So if ever you suggest someone has behaved immorally, I will call you out on it. This sentiment seems quite distant from Scripture. The prophets often called their people to account.

Originally posted by galveston75
Don't get us wrong by any means. A death of ones child I think would be the hardest thing a human could go thru. Please don't paint us as some inhuman people. And we're not after nobility or anything of the sort and certianly nothing to do with being selfish. Me giving up my child to death would be sick if it were only for selfish reasons.
But looking ...[text shortened]... one is laking in the faith like Abraham had, then yes it would be hard to accept this issue.

That's all I wanted to know. It is immoral for a mother of three to save her life by a blood transfusion.

Originally posted by Conrau K
That's all I wanted to know. It is immoral for a mother of three to save her life by a blood transfusion.

Right, and this is precisely the sort of insane view I was on about above. That people have had their ability to think clearly about such matters so profoundly compromised by unjustified literalism and sloppy inferences promulgated by dubious authority is a real tragedy. If this is what is taught to the children of Jehova's Witlesses, then they are guilty of child abuse.

Originally posted by galveston75
Don't get us wrong by any means. A death of ones child I think would be the hardest thing a human could go thru. Please don't paint us as some inhuman people. And we're not after nobility or anything of the sort and certianly nothing to do with being selfish. Me giving up my child to death would be sick if it were only for selfish reasons.
But looking ...[text shortened]... one is laking in the faith like Abraham had, then yes it would be hard to accept this issue.

Wow. You are suffering from atrophy of the brain. Fundamentalist thinking is harrowing sometimes. What you describe would just be doctrinal conformity merely for the sake of doctrinal conformity, regardless of the damage it causes.

Me giving up my child to death would be sick if it were only for selfish reasons.

Truly, it would also be sick if it were only for the fundamentalist reasons you outline.

Originally posted by Conrau K
But you are effectively saying you cannot comment on the morality of anyone else. So if ever you suggest someone has behaved immorally, I will call you out on it. This sentiment seems quite distant from Scripture. The prophets often called their people to account.

why must my conscious be judged by you?