Truth .. JW Style

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]...like I have pointed out to others here if you are fully persuaded you must continue the practice or you will be sinning if you go against your conscious...

Do you really believe this? Seems like "sin" is a matter of going against righteousness rather than going against one’s conscience. From what I've seen, for a large number of individuals, there is a wide gap between the two.[/b]

I believe anything you do against your conscious is an act of sin against it.
To get another to do the same against theirs is to cause them to sin.
Kelly

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You found the correct post, though I wish you had addressed the logical inconsistency in your position rather than restating your position.

You keep bringing up abortion which is a different issue and should be judged on its own. Regardless, it points out another logical inconsistency in your position. You agree that you would not fail to see why every ...[text shortened]... pset with a parent who would murder their child because they believed that God commanded it?

The debate bothers me because some who claim they are okay at least with the
idea of killing the unborn being legal are also slamming JW for BT. For me the evil
of one completely over shadows the other, the lesser of the two evils are the ones
that is upsetting people here now. I believe both are bad and I can see how both
should be argued against; however, forcing someone to do something or
hindering them from acting against their will isn't something I think should be
done lightly as I said. If you are going to suggest we force or belittle someone to
act in one case and not the other seems a bit like swallowing the camel and
chocking on the gnat.
Kelly

Originally posted by divegeester
I have to say, I really don't agree with this; not that our human 'understanding' of scripture cannot change, but the implication being observed here, that the truth contained therein can.

really? according to the bible the world is only about 6000 years old, yet our understanding is that the world is much older. There are numerous old testament health laws that are archaic in the light of what we know through modern science. There is truth and then there is truth. The truth of the bible is that we are God's children and He loves his creation. A principle about medical treatment based on the ignorance of Bedouin sheep herders does not qualify as truth.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i have never returned to a house where i have been told that i am not welcome, in fact, we keep a record of persons who do not want us to visit them and make a point of strictly adhering to that! Actually there are far too many mannerly people who although disinterested admire our work to be bothered with the haters. I find that most people who are well educated and mannerly have no problem with our visits. Your next duff point please!

well that is refreshing, unfortunately many of your zealous brethren chose to ignore that wise policy

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i have nothing to say in regard to your moral realism nor moral relativism, the word of God is complete and endures forever regardless of your moral preferences Indeed it is the beauty of principles in that they are not bound nor constrained by time, nor fashion, nor your moral fads! Watering down the word of God so that it is palatable to liberals ...[text shortened]... m going to vomit you out of my mouth.

yes lets all pander to the morality of the world! NOT!

I appreciate the argument, I think it is a good one, yet does not apply here Hebrews 10:1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves.

We agree that The law is unable to save us yes?

Further in Hebrews 10 it states:14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

this is our salvation by grace through the atonement piece

then immediately the passages states:15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds." 17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more


writing on our hearts and conscience the laws means that our conscience is to be our guide as we live our lives, not biblical legalism, hence I believe my original argument is not watering down God's word, but in accordance with it. Though I can appreciate the trouble people have with this idea. They have lived so long under the law, they cannot imagine what it means to be free of it, just as Abraham was free of it, and all those that lived before the law.

Originally posted by duecer
well that is refreshing, unfortunately many of your zealous brethren chose to ignore that wise policy

are you not aware that Christ stated that a mans enemies shall be persons of his own household? Listen up, when i was sixteen, my mother used to chase the Witnesses away from our house, i always wondered why, then i had an opportunity to listen to them and i liked what i was hearing, they came back and she chased them away again, when i found out i was livid, i remember asking, who was at the door, when she told me i remember running after them trying to find them but they were gone, it was not for another seven years before i came into contact with witnesses again. Do you understand the point, who are we to state who shall be interested even within a single household? and yet here you are making decisions for entire neighbourhood? are you a dictator for your neighbour hood? do you wish to control the thinking of everyone in it? why can you not let people decide for themselves? What is more, there are not a few persons who have initially been opposed and their perspective changes as circumstances in life change.

(Matthew 25:26) . . .In reply his master said to him, ‘Wicked and sluggish slave, you knew, did you, that I reaped where I did not sow and gathered where I did not winnow?

Originally posted by duecer
I appreciate the argument, I think it is a good one, yet does not apply here Hebrews 10:1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves.

We agree that The law is unable to save us yes?

Further in Hebrews 10 it states:14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

this ...[text shortened]... s to be free of it, just as Abraham was free of it, and all those that lived before the law.

what it means my dear friend is that we have a Bible trained conscience.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what it means my dear friend is that we have a Bible trained conscience.

that's not what it says

Originally posted by duecer
that's not what it says

actually Duecer, i sometimes suffer from melancholy and its leaves me pensive and reflective, please can you state clearly what it is you are trying to say, i apologise as its not entirely clear.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
actually Duecer, i sometimes suffer from melancholy and its leaves me pensive and reflective, please can you state clearly what it is you are trying to say, i apologise as its not entirely clear.

it says: 15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."

it is clear that legalism is dead, and our conscience is guided by the Holy Spirit

Originally posted by duecer
it says: 15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."

it is clear that legalism is dead, and our conscience is guided by the Holy Spirit

actually its a very interesting quotation, taken from the of the book of Jeremiah, a direct quotation,

(Jeremiah 31:33) . . .“For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.”

Paul in writing to the Hebrews uses it to show that the Mosaic law and its ordinances are no longer valid and that the new standard is one of conscience. Paul in quoting from the book of Jeremiah is of course not saying that scripture is without merit, for we hold that scripture itself is a product of Holy spirit even as the ancient Psalmist stated,

(Psalm 119:105) . . .Your word is a lamp to my foot, And a light to my roadway.

(2 Timothy 3:16-17) . . .All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

Originally posted by duecer
it says: 15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."

it is clear that legalism is dead, and our conscience is guided by the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit does lead and guide, Jesus pointed out that before He left.
I want to be clear though, if someone is attempting to justify themselves by saying
the Holy Spirit is leading them to do one thing over another, if they are not telling
the truth they are lying about God! I pointed out that I'd never attempt to make
someone who honestly believed something to go against their conscience, I'd
not attempt to talk a 7th day Adventist to worship on Sunday instead of Saturday,
or get someone who does not believe in eating meat to have a steak with me. But
if someone builds up a belief that is not Biblical that twists the intent of the Word
making it say something it doesn't and have that mold their conscience they are
doing themselves double damage. They would be adding to God's Word, and lying
about the Holy Spirit teaching them an error. I believe we do need to share the
truth with one another in hopes God can free of us of the chains we have built for
ourselves, but if claims start coming up here that our conscience is a direct result
of God in all things you'll lose the ability to see the errors in your life.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
The debate bothers me because some who claim they are okay at least with the
idea of killing the unborn being legal are also slamming JW for BT. For me the evil
of one completely over shadows the other, the lesser of the two evils are the ones
that is upsetting people here now. I believe both are bad and I can see how both
should be argued against; how ...[text shortened]... case and not the other seems a bit like swallowing the camel and
chocking on the gnat.
Kelly

Is there a reason that you keep ignoring where I point out your logical inconsistencies? If you disagree, then at least address the inconsistency directly and explain why you disagree.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I believe anything you do against your conscious is an act of sin against it.
To get another to do the same against theirs is to cause them to sin.
Kelly

As I pointed out earlier, there is often a wide gap between what is righteous and an individual's conscience. You wrote the following in another post:

But if someone builds up a belief that is not Biblical that twists the intent of the Word making it say something it doesn't and have that mold their conscience they are doing themselves double damage.

Here you seem to understand that an individual's conscience does not necessarily reflect what is righteous. In a case where an individual's conscience does not reflect what is righteous and tells them to do evil, shouldn't that individual go against their conscience?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You found the correct post, though I wish you had addressed the logical inconsistency in your position rather than restating your position.

You keep bringing up abortion which is a different issue and should be judged on its own. Regardless, it points out another logical inconsistency in your position. You agree that you would not fail to see why every pset with a parent who would murder their child because they believed that God commanded it?

Murder is legal term we can make it mean whatever we want, but I see it as a
willful act of ending another's life either through direct or indirect actions. I would
point out to you that killing the unborn is an ending of a life each time that is
pulled off, screwing up an abortion can result in a live birth.

Since not every BT means that a life is going to end that they are not the same
thing. So as far as I'm concern the two are not the same thing, because every
event where we allow an unborn child to die that is a willful act of ending a life,
and that is not the case with BT.

The only inconsistency on full display here are those that think it is okay for us to
kill our unborn and complain that JW are doing is not something that they are not
doing themselves in much greater numbers with intent. They accept ole reason
someone may have to kill their unborn children it doesn’t have to religion, it could
be because they don’t want to look fat, or they want a boy not a girl it doesn’t
matter!
Kelly