29 Sep 10
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Originally posted by menace71i would think a poor lost sheep like you could do with every scrap of biblical guidance one could get. Awake magazine has at present an average printing of 38,451,000, per month, as per January 2010, and is printed in 82 languages, the Watchtower (peace be upon it) has an average printing of 39,601,000 per month and is printed in 180 languages, no other publication even comes close to it. What is more it is offered at no cost and brought to you by friendly neighbour hood spider witnesses, the real superheros of the Christian world. Even Noobster an atheist used to get his copy, in fact he told me he couldn't wait it was that good (ok i made that up), and here you are, a lost sheep pouring scorn on the manna of God, even as the ancient Hebrews did?
I fart in the general direction of an awake magazine!! 🙂 LOL I know I stole that line from Monte python's holy grail. 😉 man
Manny
(Numbers 21:5) . . .For there is no bread and no water, and our soul has come to abhor the contemptible bread (manna)
29 Sep 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWe like 'em to cut the pics out 🙂
i would think a poor lost sheep like you could do with every scrap of biblical guidance one could get. Awake magazine has at present an average printing of 38,451,000, per month, as per January 2010, and is printed in 82 languages, the Watchtower (peace be upon it) has an average printing of 39,601,000 per month and is printed in 180 languages, no o ...[text shortened]... r there is no bread and no water, and our soul has come to abhor the contemptible bread (manna)
29 Sep 10
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Originally posted by Conrau KIt bears relevance because it has been asserted here and previously that Galveston could not possibly know that many ex Catholics, when in fact, all he has to do is to go to any convention and there are thousands of them.
I haven't denied growth. In fact, in South America there is massive exodus from the Church. Many Protestant churches have swelled. This is largely because of diminishing clergy numbers combined with a greater evangelical campaign from other churches. How does this bear on the present discussion?
I think the reasons that you give are very interesting, indeed what sheep leaves the flock if it is being looked after properly? I remember reading an interesting article about the clergy crisis, ill see if i can find it 🙂
29 Sep 10
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Originally posted by karoly aczelIt would not be the first time that i have taken a magazine back from a person if i thought they were treating it with disrespect, or would not read it, its simply far too precious to be wasted on the unappreciative, indeed, why not let someone else benefit from it.
We like 'em to cut the pics out 🙂
But i suppose if you like to look at the pretty pictures of the forthcoming earthly paradise, then you are welcome.
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29 Sep 10
2 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt bears relevance because it has been asserted here and previously that Galveston could not possibly know that many ex Catholics, when in fact, all he has to do is to go to any convention and there are thousands of them.
It bears relevance because it has been asserted here and previously that Galveston could not possibly know that many ex Catholics, when in fact, all he has to do is to go to any convention and there are thousands of them.
I think the reasons that you give are very interesting, indeed what sheep leaves the flock if it is being looked after proper ...[text shortened]... I remember reading an interesting article about the clergy crisis, ill see if i can find it 🙂
I don't think that's quite true. Firstly, you mentioned South America. As I understand, Galvo does not reside there. Secondly, the number of conversions is rising in South America, but it is unclear how many were seriously Catholics beforehand. A number of children are baptised but cease further contact afterward. Thirdly, even granted that Galvo meets these converts and enters a comprehensive discussion of Catholicism with each one, I do not believe that they could give an accurate representation of the faith.
I think the reasons that you give are very interesting, indeed what sheep leaves the flock if it is being looked after properly? I remember reading an interesting article about the clergy crisis, ill see if i can find it 🙂
I think you have a hard time following discussions. I did not say that South Americans are receiving adequate pastoral care from the church. I believe that the ratio of priest to layman is something like 1:6000. Obviously the average Catholic layman is starved of pastoral care.
29 Sep 10
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Originally posted by Conrau Kactually my learned and illustrious friend, Galveston in Texas is about as far south as you can go and not be a kick in the bum away from Mexico, that is South America, what is more , the population of those areas is predominately Southern Americans, in fact i can guarantee he has probably met more southern Americans than one could care to mention, therefore your first point is mooty de la moot! Oh i see, so the goal posts have shifted now to only serious Catholics, well well, have it your way, but i bet there are truck loads of serious Catholics who have learned the way of the true Jedi Witness!
[b]It bears relevance because it has been asserted here and previously that Galveston could not possibly know that many ex Catholics, when in fact, all he has to do is to go to any convention and there are thousands of them.
I don't think that's quite true. Firstly, you mentioned South America. As I understand, Galvo does not reside there. Secondly ...[text shortened]... n is something like 1:6000. Obviously the average Catholic layman is starved of pastoral care.[/b]
This last point, i am confused upon, are they leaving in their droves because they are receiving pastoral care but not enough, or are they leaving in their droves because there are not enough pastors to care for them, either way, its strikes me as negligent for a shepherd to leave the sheep under his care. I say by way of comparison that all a witness needs to do is pick up the phone and there are elders who are willing to shepherd, 24/7, any time of the day or night, unpaid and entirely willing. Is it not amazing? Indeed what did the resurrected Christ say to Peter? three times he admonished him, feed my little sheep.
(John 21:15-17) When, now, they had breakfasted, Jesus said to Simon Peter: “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him: “Yes, Lord, you know I have affection for you.” He said to him: “Feed my lambs.” Again he said to him, a second time: “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He said to him: “Yes, Lord, you know I have affection for you.” He said to him: “Shepherd my little sheep.” He said to him the third time: “Simon son of John, do you have affection for me?” Peter became grieved that he said to him the third time: “Do you have affection for me?” So he said to him: “Lord, you know all things; you are aware that I have affection for you.” Jesus said to him: “Feed my little sheep.
In view of this does it not strike you as negligent on the part of the Catholic church to abandon its little sheep? Indeed, what is the solution?
edit : i see it now the ratio of pastors to laymen, never the less, something surely needs to be done to address the situation. 🙂
29 Sep 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobiehttp://carm.org/testimonies-ex-roman-catholic-priests
actually my learned and illustrious friend, Galveston in Texas is about as far south as you can go and not be a kick in the bum away from Mexico, that is South America, what is more , the population of those areas is predominately Southern Americans, in fact i can guarantee he has probably met more southern Americans than one could care to mention, t ...[text shortened]... astors to laymen, never the less, something surely needs to be done to address the situation. 🙂
Here are some of the problems.
29 Sep 10
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieAnyway, back to the practise of 'shunning' which i brought up on page 35 which you didn't respond to. This is for you to Galvo.
actually my learned and illustrious friend, Galveston in Texas is about as far south as you can go and not be a kick in the bum away from Mexico, that is South America, what is more , the population of those areas is predominately Southern Americans, in fact i can guarantee he has probably met more southern Americans than one could care to mention, t ...[text shortened]... astors to laymen, never the less, something surely needs to be done to address the situation. 🙂
Do you think it's acceptable?
29 Sep 10
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Originally posted by Proper Knobwhat you talking about? i did respond to it, in fact i even demonstrated how they bring ostracism upon themselves! did my words fall like silent raindrops? Whether someone brings ostracism upon themselves is entirely their matter, indeed the principles are clearly defined and well established in scripture, and if its written in the ancient text, then not only do i think its acceptable, but righteous!
Anyway, back to the practise of 'shunning' which i brought up on page 35 which you didn't respond to. This is for you to Galvo.
Do you think it's acceptable?
29 Sep 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSo the practise in which members of your organisation are instructed to 'shun' former members who have been 'disfellowshipped', even if those members are family is acceptable to you?
what you talking about? i did respond to it, in fact i even demonstrated how they bring ostracism upon themselves! did my words fall like silent raindrops?
29 Sep 10
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Originally posted by Proper Knobentirely and utterly, without a shadow of a doubt, for they disfellowship themselves! i can guarantee you that every possible avenue will have been expended to try to help the erring one, people are disfellowshiped not for the crime, but because they refuse to repent against it, thus setting a bad example and as a last resort, they need to be removed. If they are family members then our loyalty is towards the Christ, for as i stated he who has greater love for family than for the Christ is not worthy of him! The congregation must be kept clean of any corruptive influence, family or not. Does it seem excessively harsh to you dear Noobster?
So the practise in which members of your organisation are instructed to 'shun' former members who have been 'disfellowshipped', even if those members are family is acceptable to you?
29 Sep 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI'm talking about 'shunning', is shunning acceptable?
entirely and utterly, without a shadow of a doubt, for they disfellowship themselves! i can guarantee you that every possible avenue will have been expended to try to help the erring one, people are disfellowshiped not for the crime, but because they refuse to repent against it, thus setting a bad example and as a last resort, they need to be remove ...[text shortened]... st, for as i stated he who has greater love for family than for the Christ is not worthy of him!
Fair enough if someone doesn't meet the requirements to be a member of the organisation, but should that person then have all contact removed from people who are still members, even if this includes family?
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29 Sep 10
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieactually my learned and illustrious friend, Galveston in Texas is about as far south as you can go and not be a kick in the bum away from Mexico, that is South America, what is more , the population of those areas is predominately Southern Americans, in fact i can guarantee he has probably met more southern Americans than one could care to mention, therefore your first point is mooty de la moot!
actually my learned and illustrious friend, Galveston in Texas is about as far south as you can go and not be a kick in the bum away from Mexico, that is South America, what is more , the population of those areas is predominately Southern Americans, in fact i can guarantee he has probably met more southern Americans than one could care to mention, t ...[text shortened]... astors to laymen, never the less, something surely needs to be done to address the situation. 🙂
South America encompasses quite a number of countries and cities. It is certainly quite a lot more than Mexico. But, hey, I don't deny that Galvo has met a few Mexicans and I don't some were ex-Catholic converts. What I deny is that they are significant in number or representative of Catholics. Perhaps Galvo can confirm whether he has met hundreds of ex-Catholic Mexicans migrating to Texas as Jehovah's Witnesses.
Oh i see, so the goal posts have shifted now to only serious Catholics, well well, have it your way, but i bet there are truck loads of serious Catholics who have learned the way of the true Jedi Witness!
The goalposts were never shifted. Galvo brought up this discussion in another thread, arguing that Catholics believe the Pope is God on earth and that he had this on the authority of many ex-Catholics. The assumption in this, of course, is that these converts had been more than nominal Catholics -- otherwise how could they be considered in any way experts on what Catholics are taught and believe?
This last point, i am confused upon, are they leaving in their droves because they are receiving pastoral care but not enough, or are they leaving in their drove because there are not enough pastors to care for them, either way, its strikes me as negligent for a shepherd to leave the sheep under his care.
Because there are too few priests. One priest can hardly care for 6000, especially an aged one. I don't see how this is negligence. You can't force people into becoming priests.
I say by way of comparison that all a witness needs to do is pick up the phone and there are elders who are willing to shepherd, 24/7, any time of the day or night, unpaid and entirely willing. Is it not amazing? Indeed what did the resurrected Christ say to Peter? three times he admonished him, feed my little sheep.
Yes, you will find the same sort of people in the Catholic Church. I know in East Timor, close to my country, the seminaries are overflowing with students willing to work in impoverished conditions. Self-sacrifice is not exclusive to your organisation.
29 Sep 10
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Originally posted by Proper Knobthey know the consequences of their actions, believe me. Nobody wants them to be removed, its very very sad, when someone close to you is removed, i know. But there is no alternative, they have left us with none. As for shunning, again the principles are clearly defined and readily understood. I wont heap scriptures upon you due to your sensibilities, but they are there, perhaps just one,
I'm talking about 'shunning', is shunning acceptable?
Fair enough if someone doesn't meet the requirements to be a member of the organisation, but should that person then have all contact removed from people who are still members, even if this includes family?
(2 Corinthians 6:14-17) . . .Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I shall reside among them and walk among them, and I shall be their God, and they will be my people.” “‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah,. . .