01 Apr 12
Originally posted by divegeesterAfter all this discussion on the dividing of the body, the soul, and the spirit and you
To my first post in this thread which you never replied to... "what is your point?"
What's all this about? Souls, spirits - does anything bring new truth about salvation?
still don't get it? I don't know what more could be said. Maybe, it would do you
good to become aquainted with the Holy Scriptures and do some study of your own.
01 Apr 12
1 edit
Originally posted by divegeesterIf you don't get a satisfactory reply from RJHinds, please ask me afterwards. I'll try.
To my first post in this thread which you never replied to... "what is your point?"
What's all this about? Souls, spirits - does anything bring new truth about salvation?
01 Apr 12
Originally posted by RJHindsYou still have not shown me 1 scripture that says that a human soul can go to heaven. Why not? You believe that some souls can but yet you still have no scriptures to back up that claim.
I saw nothing there that says the soul is the same as the body. Besides, you have
already been given scripture that divide the soul from the body and even from the
spirit. If the soul were the same as the human body, then how do you explain
Christ telling his disciples that anyone living will never die if they believe in Him?
Their bodies all died, not ...[text shortened]... the human body is the same as the
soul? Are you also saying that the Kingdom of God is Heaven?
I want no ones opinions or thoughts or beliefs. I want you or anyone here to show me 1 scripture that says the human soul can go to heaven..............
01 Apr 12
3 edits
Originally posted by divegeester
Thanks.
If there is something of significance then please do so, but all this claptrap and whether a soul is a spirit is next to irrelevant imo.
Thanks.
If there is something of significance then please do so, but all this claptrap and whether a soul is a spirit is next to irrelevant imo.
The question I would ask is "Is it claptrap in the Bible? Does it seem to MATTER in the Bible ? " To which I would say "Apparently, it MATTERS."
Let's look at some places where it MATTERS .
1.) "For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow, and is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)
We should assume that it is important to God, in His revealing and exposing the thoughtss and intentions of the human heart, that He utilize the living and operative word of God to DIVIDE from one another the SOUL of man and the SPIRIT of man.
Is it that God has nothing else to do and this is just a little recreational hobby ? Certainly not, I think.
The context of the wavering Hebrew Christians, almost returning to Judiasm as the Israelites wanted to return to Egypt, is that the WORD OF GOD needs to DIVIDE their human soul from their human spirit. It is important to their spiritual progress that the soul and the spirit be divided. It matters.
2.) " For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What then ? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray also with the mind; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing also with the mind." (1 Cor. 14:14,15)
Without going into too much discussion, I think it is clear that the Apostle Paul here, considers it important that the believers discern when both the human spirit and the human soul (the mind is a part of the soul) is being exercised.
It MATTERS to Paul that the Corinthians realize that BOTH the human spirit should pray while the human MIND also be exercised in prayer. It also MATTERS to Paul that the Corinthians discern that they sing with their human spirit as well as with their human mind.
If it didn't matter that there was a distinction between the spirit of man and the mind of man, WHY would Paul even bother to speak this way ?
"I will pray with the [human] spirit, AND I willl pray ALSO with the mind;
I will sing with the [human spirit, and I will ALSO sing with the [human] mind."
After talking about the three parts of man being like the three sections of God's temple (outer court - body, holy place - soul, holy of holies - spirit) Witness Lee says something about the importance of discerning the soul from the spirit:
For this reason we need to divide our soul from our spirit (Heb. 4:12). If we are unable to divide our soul from our spirit, we will simply be unable to contact the Lord. If the high priest had been unable to locate the Holy of Holies, his efforts to contact God would only have ended in failure. First, he had to enter the outer court, from the outer court he had to enter the Holy Place, and from the Holy Place he would finally enter the Holy of Holies. There he would meet God and see the shekinah glory of God’s presence.
We must learn to discern our spirit from our soul. The soul conceals and covers the spirit, just as the bones conceal the marrow. It is easy to see the bones, but it is difficult to see the marrow hidden within. In order to get to the marrow, we must break the bones. Sometimes the marrow has to be scraped from the bones. How our spirit sticks to our soul! Our spirit is hidden and concealed in our soul. The soul is easily recognized, but the spirit is difficult to know. We know a little about the Holy Spirit, but we do not know the human spirit. The reason for this is that the human spirit is concealed in the soul. Because of this the soul needs to be broken. Just as the bones are very strong, so our soul is very strong. We have a spirit, but our soul covers it up. God’s Word as a sharp sword must pierce our soul in order to break it away from our spirit.
[The Economy of God, Witness Lee, Living Stream Ministry]
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=%23%27J%26%40%0A
In the same book latter Lee further discusses the need realize the human spirit in regeneration is the key to the Christian life:
Why are we emphasizing the difference between the Holy Spirit and the human spirit? It is because our greatest problem is that we do not know the indwelling Spirit or realize that the human spirit is the very dwelling place of the Holy Spirit; neither do we know that these two spirits have been mingled together as one spirit. What a pity this is! These two things are the mark of God’s economy, and many Christians are missing this mark. A house is inaccessible when the key is missing. Only the key will open the house to us that we may enjoy everything in it. For centuries the enemy has covered the key to God’s economy. This key is the fact that our human spirit is the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit, and our human spirit is one with the wonderful Holy Spirit.
The Word of God is living and sharp, even sharper than a two-edged sword, piercing to the dividing of soul and spirit. For more than thirty years I tried to understand why this word was written and why it was written in Hebrews chapter 4. The Lord has revealed the reason. The book of Hebrews encourages us to press on from the wilderness into the good land, from the stage of wandering to the stage of resting in the all-inclusive Christ. At that time the Hebrew Christians were in danger of drifting away from Christ into Judaism, which is like the children of Israel returning to the land of Egypt (Num. 14:3-4). The Hebrew believers had been delivered out of Judaism and intended to enter into the good land of rest, but they were wandering midway between Judaism and Christ. The Epistle to the Hebrews was written to encourage them to press beyond the wandering stage by taking Christ as their all-inclusive life and rest.
01 Apr 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillThere is no "claptrap in the Bible" and I dislike the implication that that was what I said.Thanks.
If there is something of significance then please do so, but all this claptrap and whether a soul is a spirit is next to irrelevant imo.
The question I would ask is "Is it claptrap in the Bible? Does it seem to MATTER in the Bible ? " To which I would say "Apparently, it MATTERS."
Let's look at some places where it [b]M e wandering stage by taking Christ as their all-inclusive life and rest.
[/quote][/b]
01 Apr 12
2 edits
Originally posted by divegeesterOh, I'm sorry. Forgive me please.
There is no "claptrap in the Bible" and I dislike the implication that that was what I said.
Probably you didn't like it in the same way that I didn't particularly care for the matter being called "claptrap" to begin with.
No offense was meant. Can we overlook it and see what else in my post you might find useful ? As you might be able to see, it is the New Testament which puts some importance to the discerning of soul from spirit.
Soul is "self." And if we cannot discern the distinction between our self and the Christ living within us, we will have difficulty in the Christian life.
The Christians have to become more and more aware of the spirit. This awareness should deepen. This discernment should become more and more clear to the Christians.
I do not say it is always so cut and dry. But that awareness must deepen over time. We must learn to set our mind on the spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is.
" ... the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace." (Rom. 8:6)
The sense of "life and peace" is a vital indicator of our being in the presence of the indwelling Lord.
"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." (Rom. 8:16)
Here we have the Spirit Himself as the Holy Spirit and we have "our spirit". And the Holy Spirit bears joint witness within to the Christian's most intimate life union with God so as to be one of the children of God.
Yet previously it talked about the believer setting his MIND on the spirit. So if the mind of man can be set on the spirit of man, that means that the mind is something distinct. That means that the SOUL (which includes MIND, EMOTION, and WILL) is distinct from the human spirit upon which the mind is SET.
And the spirit upon which the mind is to be set, is in a life union with the Holy Spirit from the new birth. How would we detect that we are the children of God unless we set the mind of the soul upon the human spirit where the human spirit and the Holy Spirit bear joint witness ?
I believe that the regenerated human spirit is also virtually "the inner man". And the "inner man" is a realm into which Paul prayed that the Christians would be strengthened:
"That He [the Father] would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power into the inner man." (Eph. 3:16)
Here some distinction matters also, between soul and spirit. Romans 8:6 exhorted the believer to set the mind on the spirit to experience life and peace. And Ephesians 3:16 says the believers need to be strengthened with power into that realm of the "inner man".
These two verses are very closely related. We not only need to turn the mind to set it upon the regenerated spirit. We need to be energized and strengthened to remain in that sphere. That is we need to abide in that realm of the "inner man" as a way of living.
01 Apr 12
Originally posted by jaywill1.) The body of man interacts with the physical universe.Thanks.
If there is something of significance then please do so, but all this claptrap and whether a soul is a spirit is next to irrelevant imo.
The question I would ask is "Is it claptrap in the Bible? Does it seem to MATTER in the Bible ? " To which I would say "Apparently, it MATTERS."...
The book of Hebrews encourages us to ...[text shortened]... beyond the wandering stage by taking Christ as their all-inclusive life and rest.
[/quote]
2.) The soul of man interacts with the psychological world of other minds.
3.) The spirit of man substantiates the spiritual world.
This seems to be the most direct and explicit set of definitions offered. It improves on the obscure talk referenced in the OP, where the speaker considers there is no way for a human to explain the distinction. But it is not clear to me that these definitions are allowable or have not been superimposed after the event to respond to raised eyebrows.
"Soul" as defined here appears much the same as mind - the psychological, subjective, conscious mind. I imagine that people wanting individual resurrection are keen to retain their personal identity in the after life, and not content with some amorphous spiritual existence in which they do not in fact persist as individuals with their own memories. So that which persists is usually thought to be a "soul" which is also thought to be the self aware aspect of the mind.
Ignoring questions as to the nature of the "spiritual world," we are presumably to consider that our capacity to acess this (in whatever sense) is something other than mind. Possibly it is to be considered as analogous to one of our "senses" like sight, taste, touch.
However, firstly the senses are in themselves a property of mind and at the same time an aspect of body - the senses function (and can be observed doing so) as physical phenomena in our nervous system and as psychological phenomena in our mind.
Secondly, the association between "Spirit" and "Mind" is cloudy at best. If "mind" lacks a sense (analogy) by which to have access to the spiritual, then in effect there is no connection whatever. They are unable to influence each other.
01 Apr 12
Originally posted by jaywillIt was a poor choice of word and aimed at RJHinds once again stirring the pot and actually delivering very little in terms of helpful insight.
Oh, I'm sorry. Forgive me please.
Probably you didn't like it in the same way that I didn't particularly care for the matter being called "claptrap" to begin with.
No offense was meant. Can we overlook it and see what else in my post you might find useful ? As you might be able to see, it is the New Testament which puts some importance to the discern ...[text shortened]... d to abide in that realm of the [b]"inner man" as a way of living.[/b]
I don't think I disagree with anything you say in your posts, I just don't feel particularly strongly about it. I do think there is a power/energy that come from the soul, is "soulish" in nature. The "spirit" give life and comes from the Lord. The spirit is what regenerates the soul. Can I explain the exact source, location or difference of the soul from the mind? No; I only know what is written in the Bible about it and then not much.
I just don't find these discussions helpful, in fact they can lead to to the whole "purgatory" teachings of the Catholic creed etc. I like to keep it simple: 'for man is to live once, then judgement' and 'mercy triumphs over judgement' and 'for those who are in Christ there is therefore no more condemnation'. I think that's pretty close without looking those up.
02 Apr 12
1 edit
Originally posted by divegeesterThen to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have
Get what exactly?
eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:
“Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.
Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,
And you shall eat the herb of the field.
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”
(Genesis 3:17-19 NKJV)
In the above verses of scripture, God is talking about the body of Adam being made
from the ground, not the soul of Adam, which was created when the life giving
Spirit of God united with Adam's body. The soul must be judged so it does not
die at the same time as the body and it may never die if the soul believes on
Christ for salvation. Christ has the power to resurrect and change the body so
it can be reunited to the soul and live forever. Christ also has the power to
destroy the soul as well as send it into a place that it will be in torment.
02 Apr 12
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75I guess I can not show you a scripture that says it directly using the word "soul";
You still have not shown me 1 scripture that says that a human soul can go to heaven. Why not? You believe that some souls can but yet you still have no scriptures to back up that claim.
I want no ones opinions or thoughts or beliefs. I want you or anyone here to show me 1 scripture that says the human soul can go to heaven..............
but by using logic from everything else that has been said about it, we can conclude
that the soul can go to Heaven where God and Christ is now.
Let me ask you to explain what Christ meant when He spoke to one of the thieves
and said, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
(Luke 23:43 NASB)
Was Christ concerned about the thieves body or soul? Since Christ and the thief
were both going to die by crucifixion, how could they be together in paradise today?
Where is paradise?
Take the following writing from Paul in consideration before you answer.
Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses. For if I do wish to boast I will not be foolish, for I will be speaking the truth; but I refrain from this, so that no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me.
(2 Corinthians 12:1-6 NASB)
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.
(Revelation 2:7 NASB)
02 Apr 12
Originally posted by RJHindsI didn't think you could. So if your going to throw logic in this mix then look at all the other scriptures in the Bible that say nothing of the sort about any flesh of any kind going to heaven, but only if you want to use logic instead of following some paganistic belief...
I guess I can not show you a scripture that says it directly using the word "soul";
but by using logic from everything else that has been said about it, we can conclude
that the soul can go to Heaven where God and Christ is now.
Let me ask you to explain what Christ meant when He spoke to one of the thieves
and said, “Truly I say to you, today you shal ...[text shortened]... ill grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.
(Revelation 2:7 NASB)
02 Apr 12
Originally posted by galveston75Why are you now not answering my questions and changing the subject from
I didn't think you could. So if your going to throw logic in this mix then look at all the other scriptures in the Bible that say nothing of the sort about any flesh of any kind going to heaven, but only if you want to use logic instead of following some paganistic belief...
the soul going to Heaven to the fleshly body going to heaven? Do you no longer
care if the soul can go to heaven?