10 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensThese gifts are still taking place here today too, unless you think what
Hi everyone,
Today is a busy day for me, but here is just a quick note.
You're right Conrau K, the Greek is in future tense.
During Paul's time and during the Apostolic era, these special gifts could be witnessed.
Upon the death of the last Apostle (John ?), and of the last living person to whom they had bestowed the gifts, these would be over ...[text shortened]... more on this later, but naturally, although disagreeing, I respect your positions.
Regards
is going on today is something else. I do want to make one thing
clear Jesus Christ and our relationship with God through Him is what
is most important; the Giver, not the gifts is the most important part
of this and any other discussion.
Kelly
10 Sep 06
Originally posted by ngeisler88Hey, kid. Is this your blog?
Heres my answer to Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 -
"Problem: Peter seems to be saying that those who responded hat to repent and be baptized before they could receive the Holy Spirit. But this is contrary to the teaching of Paul that baptism is not part of the Gospel (I Cor. 1:17) and that we are saved by faith alone (Rom. 4:4 and Eph. 2:8-9).
Solution: ...[text shortened]... a condition of salvation."
Thank you for your time xpoforens.
http://kamikazewatermelon.blogspot.com/2004/02/part-2a-of-my-story.html
10 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayNo, the gifts that Paul spoke of as passing away in 1 Corinthians 13 have, indeed, expired. Even within that passage, Paul speaks of putting away childish things and becoming as a man. In another passage, Paul speaks of his inability to heal any longer.
These gifts are still taking place here today too, unless you think what
is going on today is something else. I do want to make one thing
clear Jesus Christ and our relationship with God through Him is what
is most important; the Giver, not the gifts is the most important part
of this and any other discussion.
Kelly
All signposts of the gospels and the epistles point to the efficacy of the soon-to-be completed Scripture, which we have in our possession today.
10 Sep 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI disagree, and I want specific passages of scripture if you do not
No, the gifts that Paul spoke of as passing away in 1 Corinthians 13 have, indeed, expired. Even within that passage, Paul speaks of putting away childish things and becoming as a man. In another passage, Paul speaks of his inability to heal any longer.
All signposts of the gospels and the epistles point to the efficacy of the soon-to-be completed Scripture, which we have in our possession today.
mind to make what you are asserting clear. Vague references within
an entire chapter and simply saying Paul said some where else isn't
much to work with.
Kelly
11 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayHi everyone,
These gifts are still taking place here today too, unless you think what
is going on today is something else. I do want to make one thing
clear Jesus Christ and our relationship with God through Him is what
is most important; the Giver, not the gifts is the most important part
of this and any other discussion.
Kelly
KellyJay,
As in a previous post I stated that special gifts were over, and, since you questioned me about that, we started this conversation. I never said these gifts were more important than the Giver.
Regarding this subject, I surely believe in the power of prayer and faith, and I believe God listens to us and helps us with our problems, even health problems.
However, I believe the bible says these special gifts (Healing, ressurecting the dead, speaking foreign languages, prophesizing, etc.), are over.
I know you have read I Corinthians 13, but have you read in the book of Acts about the way these gifts were bestowed?
In Acts you will see that only after the laying of hands on certain people, they started having these special gifts.
Only the Apostles had these gifts, and they could bestow them to chosen disciples by laying their hands, however, these disciples could not bestow them to someone else.
Note: people in the household of Cornelius received directly the gift of speaking foreign languages, as an evidence to Peter and other disciples, that these gentiles were acceptable as Christians. This is unique.
Therefore, with the exception of Acts 2 and 10, where these gifts came directly from Heaven, the Apostles always had to lay their hands in order to give them.
So, when the last Apostle died, and the last disciple to whom these gifts were given died, these gifts ceased.
Could you please tell me (in your opinion ) what is going on today?
Take care.
11 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensI'll respond to this soon.
Hi everyone,
KellyJay,
As in a previous post I stated that special gifts were over, and, since you questioned me about that, we started this conversation. I never said these gifts were more important than the Giver.
Regarding this subject, I surely believe in the power of prayer and faith, and I believe God listens to us and helps us with our prob ...[text shortened]... fts ceased.
Could you please tell me (in your opinion ) what is going on today?
Take care.
Kelly
11 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayKellyJay,
I'll respond to this soon.
Kelly
Just another thing; some things in the Bible are not expressly or explicitly stated, however, that doesn't mean we cannot reach a conclusion about a subject.
I think I Corinthians 13 says these special gifts would eventually be over.
Anyway, if you don't agree with that, then there is comon sense and/or inference *, which is one of the ways we can understand what the Bible says.
* Inference is the act or process of deriving a conclusion based solely on what one already knows (according to Wikipedia).
If the bestowers (Apostles) and the ones having been bestowed these special Holy Spirit gifts (some disciples), all eventually died, then the conclusion is that these gifts are over.
Regards
11 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by xpoferensActually, no man gave those gifts. I am writting something to address
KellyJay,
Just another thing; some things in the Bible are not expressly or explicitly stated, however, that doesn't mean we cannot reach a conclusion about a subject.
I think I Corinthians 13 says these special gifts would eventually be over.
Anyway, if you don't agree with that, then there is comon sense and/or inference *, which is one of the ...[text shortened]... disciples), all eventually died, then the conclusion is that these gifts are over.
Regards
the points you brought up. Since this topic is going be scripturally
based, I'm going to address those scriptures you used, and give you
some others to dwell on.
Kelly
edit:
I would ask that you give me the scriptures that you believe makes
your points for you. It would even be helpful to quote them so we
can just look at them here too.
11 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayNo problem KellyJay,
Actually, no man gave those gifts. I am writting something to address
the points you brought up. Since this topic is going be scripturally
based, I'm going to address those scriptures you used, and give you
some others to dwell on.
Kelly
edit:
I would ask that you give me the scriptures that you believe makes
your points for you. It would even be helpful to quote them so we
can just look at them here too.
I've read and studied the book of Acts, so I could tell you the passages, however, to speed up the process, I'll quote from an article, which has some of the relevant passages, ok?
This article talks about miracles, so if you want to have a look at it, you may find it in the following link:
http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/miracles
I'll be quoting here just a part of it.
Quote
Other than by Holy Spirit baptism, miraculous gifts could be conveyed only by an apostle of Christ. Note the evidence:
1. Philip, the evangelist (not an apostle), could perform miracles, but he could not pass that gift along to others. Accordingly, apostles, namely Peter and John, were sent to Samaria, where Philip had been preaching, so that the church there might be furnished with certain divine gifts (cf. Acts 8:5-6; 14-17).
2. In connection with the foregoing circumstances, Simon the sorcerer “saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given” (Acts 8:18). He wanted to purchase that privilege for himself, but he was informed that he had neither part nor lot in that matter, i.e., the impartation of spiritual gifts.
3. At Ephesus, Paul laid his hands on twelve converts and “they spake with tongues and prophesied” (Acts 19:6).
4. There was an unruly element within the church at Corinth that denied Paul’s apostleship. Such, however, was a very illogical position, for that church possessed spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12-14), and they had received them from none other than Paul. The “signs of an apostle” had been wrought among them (2 Corinthians 12:12), so Paul forcefully could say:
“If to others I am not an apostle, yet at least I am to you; for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord” (1 Corinthians 9:2).
The Corinthian church (with its spiritual gifts) was, therefore a “seal” (divine documentation of Paul’s apostleship), and accordingly, indirect evidence that such gifts were received only from an apostle!
5. Paul urged Timothy to “stir up the gift of God,” which, says he, “is in you through [dia—denoting the instrument or agency by means of which the gift was imparted (Arndt, p. 179)] the laying on of my hands” (2 Timothy 1:6).
Some argue that 1 Timothy 4:14 indicates that Timothy had received a spiritual gift from a certain “eldership,” which establishes a precedent for the reception of supernatural powers from a non-apostolic source. However, the passage does not suggest that.
Timothy had received a gift “by prophecy, with [meta] the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.” Meta simply denotes “attendant circumstances” and does not suggest that the gift came by the hands of the elders (Green, p. 207).
This verse asserts that Timothy had received a spiritual gift on the same general occasion when elders had laid hands upon the evangelist – doubtless to appoint him to some special mission. It does not affirm that the elders themselves imparted miracle-working ability to Timothy.
Since, therefore, there is no Holy Spirit baptism today; and further, since there are no apostles (or successors to them) in this age, it should be quite clear that men are not in possession of supernatural gifts of the Spirit in this post-apostolic era of the Christian dispensation.
End of Quote
Take care
11 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensI want to give the proper passages which will take some time to
No problem KellyJay,
I've read and studied the book of Acts, so I could tell you the passages, however, to speed up the process, I'll quote from an article, which has some of the relevant passages, ok?
This article talks about miracles, so if you want to have a look at it, you may find it in the following link:
http://www.christiancourier.com/arti ...[text shortened]... in this post-apostolic era of the Christian dispensation.
[/i]
End of Quote
Take care
gather and now I don't have a lot time. It may take me a little while
more than likely I'll be able respond by the end of the week;
however, to give you one piece of my point I'd point you to.
These are not gifts of men we are talking about, and if you look at
the passage on tongues you will see that it is talking about divers
or different types of tongues. When you spoke earlier you only spoke
of the gift where everyone heard in their own lanuage, there are
other types of tongues. It is the Spirit of God giving them, and God
does it as God wills not man.
Kelly
Bible Gateway
1 Corinthians 12
4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
11 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayNo problem, take your time.
I want to give the proper passages which will take some time to
gather and now I don't have a lot time. It may take me a little while
more than likely I'll be able respond by the end of the week;
however, to give you one piece of my point I'd point you to.
These are not gifts of men we are talking about, and if you look at
the passage on tongues you ...[text shortened]... re the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
The Apostles laid their hands upon some disciples, but naturally it was the Holy Spirit that bestowed the gifts. They had no power of their own.
I'm sorry if I lead you to that conclusion.
I don't know why one should think about "other types of tongues", since what happened in Pentecost was that everyone heard in their own tongue (language).
Acts 2
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
In Acts, these tongues are languages; why should they mean something else in the letter to the Corinthians?
xpoferens
12 Sep 06
Jesus does command you to be baptized, as an act of obedience, but you are right in that baptism cannot gain you salvation...
"And Jesus came and said to them, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.' ”
-Matthew 28:18-20
12 Sep 06
Originally posted by IronstarHi Ironstar,
Jesus does command you to be baptized, as an act of obedience, but you are right in that baptism cannot gain you salvation...
"And Jesus came and said to them, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching ...[text shortened]... you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.' ”
-Matthew 28:18-20
Could you please give us your interpretation of the following passages regarding baptism?
Mark 16:16
Acts 2:38
I Peter 3:21
Regards
12 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensI'd like to put together some scriptures to bring this out in fuller
No problem, take your time.
The Apostles laid their hands upon some disciples, but naturally it was the Holy Spirit that bestowed the gifts. They had no power of their own.
I'm sorry if I lead you to that conclusion.
I don't know why one should think about "other types of tongues", since what happened in Pentecost was that everyone heard in their ...[text shortened]... anguages; why should they mean something else in the letter to the Corinthians?
xpoferens
detail, but you are right it was not the Apostles' gifts it was and is the
Holy Spirit, it is also the Spirit of God who leads and teaches us. Even
the position of Apostle comes from God, so I do not see why you
think there was a limited number of people who had this ability to
pass along the gifts of the Holy Spirit, it is the Holy Spirit of God that
does that.
The are several different types of tongues, you are speaking about
one, not the others. Simply seeing one in Acts in one place does not
limit the others from being real. I'll attempt to give you scripture to
back this up shortly when I can string together some more time.
Kelly
12 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayHi KellyJay,
I'd like to put together some scriptures to bring this out in fuller
detail, but you are right it was not the Apostles' gifts it was and is the
Holy Spirit, it is also the Spirit of God who leads and teaches us. Even
the position of Apostle comes from God, so I do not see why you
think there was a limited number of people who had this ability to
pass a ...[text shortened]... give you scripture to
back this up shortly when I can string together some more time.
Kelly
Glad to "hear" from you again.
I said there was a limited number of people who had the ability to pass along these special gifts of the Holy Spirit, because that is what I can understand by reading (in the book of Acts) relevant passages regarding this subject.
In one of my previous posts, I quoted from an article that tried to explain how these gifts were given.
Sure it was the Holy Spirit that bestowed these gifts, but that was done after the Apostles had laid their hands.
Don't ask me why it happened this way. God knows.
Please read the episode of Simon the Magician (Acts 8:5-24).
I'll discuss it with you later.
Regarding the gift of tongues, I'll wait for the scriptures.
Take care.
xpoferens