What is salvation?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
No, the gifts that Paul spoke of as passing away in 1 Corinthians 13 have, indeed, expired. Even within that passage, Paul speaks of putting away childish things and becoming as a man. In another passage, Paul speaks of his inability to heal any longer.

All signposts of the gospels and the epistles point to the efficacy of the soon-to-be completed Scripture, which we have in our possession today.

Hmm...this appears to be selective reading of the passage to me, but I am opened to hearing your
justification. Chapter 14 speaks explicitly of pursuing spiritual gifts and how tongues is a spiritual
gift (albeit a gift less important to St Paul than prophesying). He explicitly states that in order for
tongues to be meaningful, there must be someone who interprets the same.

Seems rather a waste to go into all that dialogue about tongues and stuff if it was just going to
pass away in a bit, no?

I am by no means an expert on St Paul, so perhaps you have some great wisdom about this that
I am overlooking.

Nemesio

edit: What of St Mark 16:15-18?

[Jesus] said to them: Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned. These
signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will drive out demons, they will speak
new languages. They will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm
them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.

I assume that a literal reader won't suppose that St Mark was referring to Spanish or Russian here.

Originally posted by xpoferens
Hi KellyJay,

Regarding the book of Jude and its sentence "...the faith which was once and for all delivered unto the saints.", it should be clear that it is referring to knowledge, not tongues.
Since knowledge was one of the things that would cease I thought it would be appropriate to mention the verse.

What you said regarding what happened in Acts ...[text shortened]... the apostles.

In all of your posts, you have continuously ignored this point.

xpoferens

There is nothing in Jude that talks about the gifts being taken away,
nothing at all. I believe you are reading into it something that is not
there, and as far as the "...normal way these gifts were given." I have
to say, "What?" The normal way they were given, is that God gives
them and that is that. You again are reading something into scripture
that isn't there, there isn't any verse in any chapter in any book that
says what you have so far implied. The only verse that comes close
is in the 13th Chapter of Corinthians and there if you happen to
continue reading the rest of the book that gets blown out of the water.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
There is nothing in Jude that talks about the gifts being taken away,
nothing at all. I believe you are reading into it something that is not
there, and as far as the "...normal way these gifts were given." I have
to say, "What?" The normal way they were given, is that God gives
them and that is that. You again are reading something into scripture
that ...[text shortened]... happen to
continue reading the rest of the book that gets blown out of the water.
Kelly

Hi,

Saying "there isn't any verse in any chapter in any book that says what you have so far implied", is one thing.

Going to the passages given and refuting them, is quite another.

Regards

Originally posted by xpoferens
Hi,

Saying "there isn't any verse in any chapter in any book that says what you have so far implied", is one thing.

Going to the passages given and refuting them, is quite another.

Regards

What passages? You have not given me a text to work with, nothing
you brought up suggests what you say.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
What passages? You have not given me a text to work with, nothing
you brought up suggests what you say.
Kelly

In my previous posts I've given you passages and quotes; it's up to you to check them or not.

You are concentrating just in 2 chapters of the first letter to the Corinthians, ignoring other relevant passages.

Remember, people that ignore relevant passages in the New Testament regarding the Sabbath, still keep it.

Why? Simple, they just read one part of the Bible, ignoring the rest.

The Old Testament has inumerous passages regarding the Sabbath, and guess what... We are not to keep it as the Israelites did.

Take care

Originally posted by xpoferens
In my previous posts I've given you passages and quotes; it's up to you to check them or not.

You are concentrating just in 2 chapters of the first letter to the Corinthians, ignoring other relevant passages.

Remember, people that ignore relevant passages in the New Testament regarding the Sabbath, still keep it.

Why? Simple, they just read one pa ...[text shortened]... rding the Sabbath, and guess what... We are not to keep it as the Israelites did.

Take care

I tell you what, just so there is no doubt.
Just quote the passages, give the address and the words in each
passage you feel makes your point. If for example you have a
passage that tells me that God was planning on taking away the
gifts, please give it. If all you have is that there were times that
people had others lay hands on them and those people have
died off that could do that, show me where it says that was the
case. In other words, I want to see the words in scripture not what
you read into the text, scripture matters nothing else matters, if it
isn't in scripture in some fashion you have nothing but what you think
not what the scripture says. I mean no disrespect, but opinions not
scripture is all you have given me so far.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I tell you what, just so there is no doubt.
Just quote the passages, give the address and the words in each
passage you feel makes your point. If for example you have a
passage that tells me that God was planning on taking away the
gifts, please give it. If all you have is that there were times that
people had others lay hands on them and those people ...[text shortened]... says. I mean no disrespect, but opinions not
scripture is all you have given me so far.
Kelly

In page 3 of this thread, in one of my posts you will find a (long) citation from and article that talks about this subject.

In the same page, in another post you will find...


Please read the episode of Simon the Magician (Acts 8:5-24).

I'll discuss it with you later.


Take care

Originally posted by xpoferens
In page 3 of this thread, in one of my posts you will find a (long) citation from and article that talks about this subject.

In the same page, in another post you will find...


Please read the episode of Simon the Magician (Acts 8:5-24).

I'll discuss it with you later.


Take care

Sorry I wrote a book I know people hate reading long posts.

You realize that even this scripture does not talk about God not
moving through man by the Holy Spirit don't you? This story in Acts
does speak about the laying on of hands to receive the Spirit of God,
and as I have pointed out to you in one scripture that simply just
receiving the Holy Spirit is not limited to those that those within the
church lay their hands on. I gave you one example and I'll give you
another now as we discuss the scripture you have brought up.
In this portion of scripture those that believed were only baptized in
the name of Jesus Christ. So they were baptized, I'd point out that
even Simon who you are making a point about was also baptized, this
even before the next set of events take place.

Acts 8
12And when they believed Philip, proclaiming good news, the things concerning the reign of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized both men and women;

13and Simon also himself did believe, and, having been baptized, he was continuing with Philip, beholding also signs and mighty acts being done, he was amazed.

Now as you are pointing out there were some that were sent to pray
for them so that they may receive the Holy Spirit. This is as you think
important, but I doubt at the moment we agree why it is.

Acts 8
14And the apostles in Jerusalem having heard that Samaria hath received the word of God, did send unto them Peter and John,
15who having come down did pray concerning them, that they may receive the Holy Spirit, --
16for as yet he was fallen upon none of them, and only they have been baptized -- to the name of the Lord Jesus;
17then were they laying hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

So they prayed laying their hands on them and they received the Holy
Spirit, this has been your point that this is how it done (normally I
suppose whatever that means), but this is not the only way. I have
already pointed out to you that that no one was laying on hands in
Acts 2 when the Spirit of God baptized those in the upper room who
were praying. So let me point you to another scripture, not a just the
one that already given you in the book of Acts.

Acts 10
28And he said unto them, `Ye know how it is unlawful for a man, a Jew, to keep company with, or to come unto, one of another race, but to me God did shew to call no man common or unclean;
29therefore also without gainsaying I came, having been sent for; I ask, therefore, for what matter ye did send for me?'

I want to point out to you here was another example of what people
thought to be ‘normal’ the fact that there was still a distinction
between the Jewish people and non Jews concerning our relationship
with God, and this ‘normal distinction’ God also destroys. Peter starts
off by saying,

Acts 10
34And Peter having opened his mouth, said, `Of a truth, I perceive that God is no respecter of persons,
35but in every nation he who is fearing Him, and is working righteousness, is acceptable to Him;

Now this is important, while Peter was talking a little later in the book
something happens.

Acts 10
44While Peter is yet speaking these sayings, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those hearing the word,
45and those of the circumcision believing were astonished -- as many as came with Peter -- because also upon the nations the gift of the Holy Spirit hath been poured out,
46for they were hearing them speaking with tongues and magnifying God.
47Then answered Peter, `The water is any one able to forbid, that these may not be baptized, who the Holy Spirit did receive -- even as also we?'

In this case no one was laying hands on them or even praying for
anyone to receive any gift of God at that time, and God baptized
them with the Spirit of God, and Peter said now they shouldn’t be
denied to be baptized with water as they were accepted by God
as the Holy Spirit did receive them.

I bring this up to you and I’ll tell you that it is not limited to just the
laying on of hands, and God did not anywhere say that he was only
going to limit baptizing us with the Holy Spirit either in any passage of
scripture. You need to be very specific if you are going to push such a
belief, because it isn’t backed up by any scripture anywhere, in either
the old or new testaments. I have read them a couple of times over
and unless I missed something that is not the case. If I did miss
something I ask you to bring the scriptures forward not some persons
opinion what they thing should or should not happen.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Sorry I wrote a book I know people hate reading long posts.

You realize that even this scripture does not talk about God not
moving through man by the Holy Spirit don't you? This story in Acts
does speak about the laying on of hands to receive the Spirit of God,
and as I have pointed out to you in one scripture that simply just
receiving the Holy Spi ...[text shortened]... tures forward not some persons
opinion what they thing should or should not happen.
Kelly

Hi Kelly,

Thanks for your post.

No problem if it is long, after all, we are searching for the truth, and therefore, we have to do whatever is required to achieve that goal.

I'll have a look at it and reply as soon as possible.

Take care.

xpoferens

Originally posted by KellyJay
Sorry I wrote a book I know people hate reading long posts.

You realize that even this scripture does not talk about God not
moving through man by the Holy Spirit don't you? This story in Acts
does speak about the laying on of hands to receive the Spirit of God,
and as I have pointed out to you in one scripture that simply just
receiving the Holy Spi tures forward not some persons
opinion what they thing should or should not happen.
Kelly

Hi KellyJay,

If you look carefully at most of my posts, you will notice that I've mentioned both Acts 2 and 10 as exceptions to the 'laying of hands' rule. I'm aware of what those passages say.

During his ministry, Jesus told his disciples he would send the Comforter. That eventually happened in the day of Pentecost after Jesus ascension to Heaven (Acts 2).

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.

Matthew 10
19 But when they deliver you up, be not anxious how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.

Luke 21
13 It shall turn out unto you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate beforehand how to answer:
15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to withstand or to gainsay.

Regarding what is described in Acts 10, and other passages that describe the same story, that happened so that the skeptic Peter and his companions, as well as other disciples in Jerusalem, could see that salvation was available to gentiles as well as to Jews (I've stated this in a previous post).

Actually, the dream Peter had before he was called to go to Cornelius' house was to prepare his mind to this fact.

Acts 10
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common and unclean.
15 And a voice came unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, make not thou common.

...

Acts 10
45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?

As you can see by verse 47, the skeptical disciples saw evidence that salvation was available to gentiles as well.

Acts 11
2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
3 saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
4 But Peter began, and expounded the matter unto them in order, saying,

...

17 If then God gave unto them the like gift as he did also unto us, when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I, that I could withstand God?
18 And when they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then to the Gentiles also hath God granted repentance unto life.

Peter had to explain all this to some of the disciples in Jerusalem, since there was a lot of skepticism among some of them, regarding the gentiles.
These skeptics believed. The fact that they were skeptics is clear. The fact that they started believing due to what had happened, is clear as well.

Previously, we had a look at what is described in Acts 8, now let us look at few more passages that deal with the subject of 'laying of hands'.

Acts 6
3 Look ye out therefore, brethren, from among you seven men of good report, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
4 But we will continue stedfastly in prayer, and in the ministry of the word.
5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolaus a proselyte of Antioch;
6 whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands upon them.
7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem exceedingly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, wrought great wonders and signs among the people.

Stephen wrought great wonders and signs after the apostles had laid their hands upon him. In verse 5, Philip is also mentioned; the same one that preached and baptized in Samaria (Acts 8).

Acts 19
4 And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people that they should believe on him that should come after him, that is, on Jesus.
5 And when they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And they were in all about twelve men.


I think it is clear from this passage that these twelve men received the special gifts, only after Paul had laid his hands upon them.


II Timothy 1:6 For which cause I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee through the laying on of my hands.

Another passage that confirm the rule.

What is described in Acts 2 and 10 are the exceptions not the rule.

These exceptions had a reason, and I've tried to explain what those reasons were.

If one gets to the conclusion that the 'laying of hands' by the apostles (and only them) was necessary for these gifts to be bestowed (by the Holy Spirit, naturally), it follows that when the apostles died, these gifts ceased, just as Paul in I Corinthians 13 said they would; the same happened to supernatural knowledge/revelation, and other supernatural gifts.

Regards,

xpoferens

[LAST EDITED: 16 Sep '06 04:10]

Originally posted by xpoferens
If one gets to the conclusion that the 'laying of hands' by the apostles (and only them) was necessary for these gifts to be bestowed (by the Holy Spirit, naturally), it follows that when the apostles died, these gifts ceased, just as Paul in I Corinthians 13 said they would; the same happened to supernatural knowledge/revelation, and other supernatural gifts.

But St Mark 16:15-18 makes it pretty clear that the 'laying of hands' was not necessary
to receive the Holy Spirit's gifts (and that Baptism was a means by which the Holy Spirit
might imbue these gifts).

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
But St Mark 16:15-18 makes it pretty clear that the 'laying of hands' was not necessary
to receive the Holy Spirit's gifts (and that Baptism was a means by which the Holy Spirit
might imbue these gifts).

Nemesio

Hi Nemesio,

You are correct regarding baptism (immersion) as necessary for one to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, but this was not the "supernatural gift" that enabled disciples to perform miracles, et cetera.

Acts 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This gift that one receives upon baptism is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Ephesians 2:22 in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

This gift empowers us to do the will of God, but is not the gift of tongues (languages), knowledge, revelation, healing, et cetera.

The scriptures cited in my previous post, make clear that baptized people had to have the apostles hands laid upon them to receive these gifts (there are two exceptions mentioned, but I've tried to explain them using the scriptures).

Please notice these evidences about the 'laying of hands' (there are more):

Acts 19
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And they were in all about twelve men.

II Timothy 1:6 For which cause I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee through the laying on of my hands.

...

Mark 16:16 is speaking about baptism as necessary for salvation.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

Verses 17 and onwards don't imply that the ones that were baptized (immersed), received immediately these gifts.

Yes, they explicitly say that believers would have that ability, but it is what is written in the book of Acts that explains how this ability was bestowed, and by whom (the apostles, by the Power of God).

Regards

Originally posted by xpoferens
Hi KellyJay,

If you look carefully at most of my posts, you will notice that I've mentioned both Acts 2 and 10 as exceptions to the 'laying of hands' rule. I'm aware of what those passages say.

[b]During his ministry, Jesus told his disciples he would send the Comforter. That eventually happened in the day of Pentecost after Jesus ascension to Heaven ...[text shortened]... supernatural gifts.

Regards,

xpoferens

[LAST EDITED: 16 Sep '06 04:10][/b]

If one gets to the conclusion that the 'laying of hands' by the apostles (and only them) was necessary for these gifts to be bestowed (by the Holy Spirit, naturally), it follows that when the apostles died, these gifts ceased, just as Paul in I Corinthians 13 said they would; the same happened to supernatural knowledge/revelation, and other supernatural gifts.

If one gets to the conclusion that by the laying on of hands by the
apostles only, gets the gifts of the Spirit of God, one needs
understand that they have to make that case to others that do
not agree with them. Since we have established that it is God
not man that gives these gifts, and that God does it when and
where God wants, and that God also uses others besides those
12 to lay on hands too, I have to wonder why you keep saying
these things. If it isn't true that God only does it the way you
say, you admit God does it other ways, why claim there is some
rule, law, promise, or whatever that has God removing these
things from His church.

I Corinthians 13...what? What verse are you refering to, I'd like
you to site the passage of scripture and in context tell me how,
when, and why you think God is going to stop the Holy Spirit from
moving among His people in the manner he later tells us to seek
out in the next chapter. I really don't want to pass this over and
move on to other points of text if we have to continue to refute this
passage of scripture again and again.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
[b]If one gets to the conclusion that the 'laying of hands' by the apostles (and only them) was necessary for these gifts to be bestowed (by the Holy Spirit, naturally), it follows that when the apostles died, these gifts ceased, just as Paul in I Corinthians 13 said they would; the same happened to supernatural knowledge/revelation, and other supernatural of text if we have to continue to refute this
passage of scripture again and again.
Kelly

Hi,

I only said what the Bible says, nothing less, nothing more. It is up to you to accept or not what the book that has part of the early history of the Church has to say.

God imparted the gifts, but He did this through the apostles; only in two exceptional situations He imparted them directly, with an obvious purpose.

I Corinthians 13 is explicit about the temporary condition of these gifts, from other passages we may infer.

I Corinthians 13
8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.
13 But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

Of course Paul tells the Corinthians to seek these gifts out, after all, they were not over yet (for some time yet), but he warns them that since these gifts would eventually be over, they should pay attention to the real important ones; the ones that would stay forever; faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

Regards

Originally posted by xpoferens
Hi,

I only said what the Bible says, nothing less, nothing more. It is up to you to accept or not what the book that has part of the early history of the Church has to say.

God imparted the gifts, but He did this through the apostles; only in two exceptional situations He imparted them directly, with an obvious purpose.

I Corinthians 13 is explici ...[text shortened]... ould stay forever; faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

Regards

I'd like to point out that even Jesus' acts were exceptional to human
history, did that mean nothing could be done because Jesus did acts
that were exceptional? I'm not sure what you mean by this line of
reasoning, of course all spiritual gifts when the Holy Spirit moves
through a person are 'exceptional' and people believe because of the
works sake. Yet you’d have me to believe that God stopped, and I’m
still waiting for the reasons why.

The gifts are God's to impart, God did do it through people not just
Apostles, and your beliefs that you see an obvious purpose that also
includes the taking away of those gifts is something you have yet to
show scripturally. You have said if I read between the lines so to speak
I can see it because of this or that, but I'm not looking for something
so vague, but a solid line of scripture telling us that this is the way
it is/was.

I only said what the Bible says, nothing less, nothing more. It is up to you to accept or not what the book that has part of the early history of the Church has to say.

Actually no you have not done this to prove this point. At one point
you even told me,

"KellyJay,

Just another thing; some things in the Bible are not expressly or explicitly stated, however, that doesn't mean we cannot reach a conclusion about a subject.

I think I Corinthians 13 says these special gifts would eventually be over.

Anyway, if you don't agree with that, then there is comon sense and/or inference *, which is one of the ways we can understand what the Bible says.

* Inference is the act or process of deriving a conclusion based solely on what one already knows (according to Wikipedia).

If the bestowers (Apostles) and the ones having been bestowed these special Holy Spirit gifts (some disciples), all eventually died, then the conclusion is that these gifts are over.

Regards"

Now if, "...some things in the Bible are not expressly or explicitly
stated, ..." This is where you and I are parting company, I do not
see what you are promoting as a fact. I have agreed that that God
has moved by the laying on of hands, you and I both have agreed
that there are times God didn't do it that way. You call those
exceptions, I call that proof that it isn't just with the laying on of
hands that it occurs. If you are going to make a claim that it only
happens one way, and all the times it doesn't occur the way you claim
don't count because... I say we have a problem. There are just run of
the mill Christians that have gone to others and prayed in scripture
and with laying on of their hands God moved. You limit God by your
position, it isn't scriptural, why would anyone seek something only
a handful of people were going to aquire then it stops, why the big
deal if it was not for the body of Christ?
Kelly