What is the Kingdom of God?

Originally posted by jaywill
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No you have not been hard on me, I am used to it, you have simply failed to discuss anything in relation to the Kingdom of God. Prior to learning that i was one of Jehovahs Witnesses, you used to discuss things freely and openly, upon learning that i was one, you instantly became hostile.
===================== the dom. When the King gets into the dom you enter into the kingdom.[/b]

What were you doing in 1970 Robbie ? I was just born.

"Joy in the Holy Spirit" IS the kingdom of God - mmm, i have never read that before, perhaps you have a reference?

Yes we believe the Holy spirit is the most powerful force in the Universe. Yes we do not profess that its a God.

I get it now, you really think that the Kingdom of God is in a persons heart.

It of course does not explain the verse in Daniel,

(Daniel 2:44) . . .“And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;

for how can an inner state crush and put an end to worldly kingdoms? your not advocating violence are you Jaywill?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
What were you doing in 1970 Robbie ? I was just born.

"Joy in the Holy Spirit" IS the kingdom of God - mmm, i have never read that before, perhaps you have a reference?

Yes we believe the Holy spirit is the most powerful force in the Universe. Yes we do not profess that its a God.

I get it now, you really think that the Kingdom of God is in ...[text shortened]... state crush and put an end to worldly kingdoms? your not advocating violence are you Jaywill?

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"Joy in the Holy Spirit" IS the kingdom of God - mmm, i have never read that before, perhaps you have a reference?
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I just gave you the reference.

"For the kingdom of God is nt eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (ROMANS 14:17)

It tells you what the kingdom of God is NOT, and what the kingdom of God IS.
It also tells WHEN is the kingdom of God.

Read it aloud a few times.

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Yes we believe the Holy spirit is the most powerful force in the Universe. Yes we do not profess that its a God.
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The Holy Spirit is symolized by a dove in the gospels. Now I agree that God's Spirit is powerful But this Spirit of God is as gentle as a dove. God will not usurp the human will.

A dove is easily chased away. The Holy Spirit is God Himself. He seeks to enter into your heart. He can be easily shewed away like a gentle dove.

This is not saying God is not mighty. It is suggestng that when it comes to God wanting to enter into your spirit, He is a gentlemen about it. He will not force you. He wants to enter into you by your willing invitation.

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get it now, you really think that the Kingdom of God is in a persons heart.
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I am not going to fall into the trap that you may wish me to fall into. I nor the bible is saying that the kingdom of God is ONLY the Spirit of God in the heart of the believer.

But it was the Bible and not me that said the kingdom is "righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" . Those are matters in the heart of man.

As far as the saved are concerned is STARTS in the heart. I know you are anxious to talk about mountains filling the whole earth.

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It of course does not explain the verse in Daniel,
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It is also related to Daniel. You simply want to hurry up and talk about world politics and the outward object aspects of God's reigning.

I take Daniel AND ALSO Romans 14:17 for a full view of all aspects of the kingdom of God.

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(Daniel 2:44) . . .“And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;
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Amen. I know this. This seed of divine life will grow and grow. Eventually at the second coming of Christ the little seed of life will burst out from within and addition to His coming down from above.

The overcomers in Christ will reign with Him. The mountain will fill the whole earth. First He has to fill your heart.

Is the mountain of the kingdom of God filling our hearts with "righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" in the age of grace - the church age ?

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for how can an inner state crush and put an end to worldly kingdoms? your not advocating violence are you Jaywill?
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First He must gain a group of overcomers who allow "righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" to spread and crush the old nature in the believers in the church age.

My lust - crushed by righteousness.
My temper - crushed by peace.
My envy - crushed by joy in the Holy Spirit.
My anxiety - crushed by righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
My self pity - crushed by the Spirit's spreading in my soul.

My old man - crucified with Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit
My isolation and independence - conquered by peace in the Holy Spirit with the other Christian brothers.

In this church age the kingdom is spreading and growing in the hearts and lives of some overcoming believers. This is a training. Then at Christ's second coming the reward will be to reign with Him.

"He that rules his spirit is better then he that rules a city" it says somewhere in the book of Proverbs. The kingdom today is a real excercise. But when Christ comes to reign it will be a great prize. It is His wisdom today that we now may be trained for the kingdom to come and His justice maintained.

That is from a Christian hymn. The spreading of His life within the overcoming believers is the stage of the kingdom of God today in the church age. The taste and flavor of the kingdom when He comes again will be different.

Originally posted by jaywill
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"Joy in the Holy Spirit" IS the kingdom of God - mmm, i have never read that before, perhaps you have a reference?
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I just gave you the reference.

"For the kingdom of God is nt eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" age. The taste and flavor of the kingdom when He comes again will be different.

But that is not what the verse states, it clearly states that Gods Kingdom will crush and put an end not to envy, not to lust, not to any of those things that you mentioned, but to overthrowing and crushing worldly governments. The verse does not say anything about filling anyone's heart, it states that God, will set up a kingdom, irrespective of what anyone else does, it will be established and it will crush all other Kingdoms. Where you get all the stuff about a seed bursting forth, etc i have really no idea. It is clear that you are confused as to whether it is a kind of state of heart where you are professing that Christ dwells inside the believers heart, or and/that it is also a ruling body made up of Christ and those who will rule with him as Kings and priests.

Even when we consider the words of Christ in the model prayer, 'Our father let your kingdom come', are we to suppose that Christ himself had need of entering into himself? i think not. clearly the Kingdom of God is something entirely different to some type of emotional response or any pretence of Christ dwelling within a person real or imagined. How do we know, well Christ actually hands over the Kingdom,

(1 Corinthians 15:24) . . .when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.

Reiterating the words of Daniel. How can Christ hand over an innate emotional state of heart, it simply does not make any sense. Clearly then Gods Kingdom is an entity for establishing his sovereignty, that is why it crushes and puts and end to all other kingdoms, so that Gods sovereignty is once again expressed over the dominion of the earth.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
But that is not what the verse states, it clearly states that Gods Kingdom will crush and put an end not to envy, not to lust, not to any of those things that you mentioned, but to overthrowing and crushing worldly governments. The verse does not say anything about filling anyone's heart, it states that God, will set up a kingdom, irrespective of wh o nothing all government and all authority and power.

reiterating the words of Daniel.[/b]

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But that is not what the verse states, it clearly states that Gods Kingdom will crush and put an end not to envy, not to lust, not to any of those things that you mentioned, but to overthrowing and crushing worldly governments.
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Christ will obliterate all the earthly forms of government and establish His kingdom on the earth. But He wants to be accompanied by some of His overcoming saints. They are to be co-kings with Him.

For example, His promise to the church in Thyatira -

"And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;

And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father." (Rev. 2:26)

The priviledge to accompany Christ in His shepherding of the nations, is a reward to those who are overcomers in the church age.

This overcoming is of many things in the fallen old man and are overcome by learning to walk by the Holy Spirit. Overcoming many internal things in the old Adamic nature is a prerequisite to be to be awarded a position in His ruling over the nations.

Therefore, to overcome bad habits, living in the self, living a worldly life, living in the flesh, and quenching the Holy Spirit are a training in this age for reigning with Him in the coming age.

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The verse does not say anything about filling anyone's heart, it states that God, will set up a kingdom, irrespective of what anyone else does, it will be established and it will crush all other Kingdoms.
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But this is only one section on the teaching about the kingdom of God.
As a New Testament Christian, the statements on the kingdom of God are very relevant.

So I need Daniel and I need Romans too.

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Where you get all the stuff about a seed bursting forth, etc i have really no idea.
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Here is one place I get this kind of concept:

"When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed ..." (2 Thess. 1:10)

Notice the words "glorified IN His saints".
Notice the words "to be marveled at IN all those who have believed"

This again is about the Jesus Christ who enters INTO His saved people. Now He is within them working to sanctify and transform them witht their cooperation. At His return the hidden glory will shine out and He is glorified "IN" His saints. And the world will marvel at this glory which is "IN" all those who have believed.

Christ IN you the hope of glory is what Paul wrote in Colossians 1:27.

So it is Jehovah's will that we receive this Christ IN our being. And if He transforms our soul, with our cooperation, His indwelling will be the glorious splendour to be marveled at from within the believers.

And also the overcoming believers will reign with Him as He puts the nations in line with His strong iron rod of ruling power.

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It is clear that you are confused as to whether it is a kind of state of heart where you are professing that Christ dwells inside the believers heart, or and/that it is also a ruling body made up of Christ and those who will rule with him as Kings and priests.
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I am not confused. He wants you to be saved. He also wants you to grow in the divine life learning to overcome many things.

As a reward to the Christian who have cooperated with His growth into their personality, He will rule the nations WITH them.

Today through the Holy Spirit I rule my temper. At that time I may rule over five cities or ten cities (Luke 19:11-27)

" ... Well done, good slave. Because you have become faithful in the least, have authority over ten cities." (v.17)

" And he said to this one as well, And you, be over five cities." (v.19)

The principle is clear. During the church age if the saved believer is faithful over a few things, she or he will be awarded responsibility over larger matters, like cities. Faitfhulness is a key.

Jesus comes into the believer and he or she should be faithful to overcome the old life and live through Christ the indwelling divine life.

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Even when we consider the words of Christ in the model prayer, 'Our father let your kingdom come', are we to suppose that Christ himself had need of entering into himself? i think not. clearly the Kingdom of God is something entirely different to some type of emotional response or any pretence of Christ dwelling within a person. How do we know, well Christ actually hands over the Kingdom,
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Look again at Paul's words:

"The mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations but now has been manifested to His saints.

To whom God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Col. 1:26,27)

The mystery now revealed to God's saints is Christ IN them, Christ IN them, the hope of glory.

We have to open up our hearts and say "Lord Jesus, I receive You. Lord Jesus cleanse me in your precious blood and fill me with Your Spirit. Thankyou Lord Jesus. I receive you into me - Christ in me the hope of glory. I am for your kingdom Lord. Grow in me. Be formed in me."

Paul labored not only to get the people saved but also to have Jesus Christ formed within them. Paul told the troublesome Christians in the churches in Galatia:

"My children, with whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you." (Gal. 4:19)

Paul discribing himself like a mother in labor is a metaphor showing his love, dedication, and suffering on behalf of the Galatian Christians. But Christ being formed in them is not metaphor. He means that the Christ Whom each one of them has received must transform their personalities and take shape in them. His life from which they were "born again" must grow in them.

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(1 Corinthians 15:24) . . .when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.

reiterating the words of Daniel.
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That is at the end of the millennial kingdom. This does not effect the fact that man's participation in reigning with Christ requires that Christ enter into them, be formed in them, and grow in them.

Then at His second coming at the beginning of the 1,000 years, He will be glorified IN His saints and marveled at IN His believers. As some reign with Him over the cities they will be marveled at for the divine splendour which radiates not only morally from their beings but physically also.

Originally posted by jaywill
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But that is not what the verse states, it clearly states that Gods Kingdom will crush and put an end not to envy, not to lust, not to any of those things that you mentioned, but to overthrowing and crushing worldly governments.
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Christ will obliterate all the ea ...[text shortened]... radiates not only morally from their beings but physically also.[/b]

so we agree, that the Kingdom of God is a messianic government which shall crush and put an end to the present political system and take dominion over the earth.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
so we agree, that the Kingdom of God is a messianic government which shall crush and put an end to the present political system and take dominion over the earth.

Yes. But I think that is by far the easier part to understand.

That aspect can almost be comprehended without regard to the New Testament.
All the Jews of Jesus time understood something like a Messianic king coming to
get the enemies of Israel off their case and establish Israel as a world capital.

What about "Christ in you the hope of glory" ?

I think you should learn much more about that.

Originally posted by jaywill
Yes. But I think that is by far the easier part to understand.

That aspect can almost be comprehended without regard to the New Testament.
All the Jews of Jesus time understood something like a Messianic king coming to
get the enemies of Israel off their case and establish Israel as a world capital.

What about [b]"Christ in you the hope of glory" ?

I think you should learn much more about that.[/b]

yes but we are not yet finished with the Kingdom, for if we state that it shall take dominion over the earth, then surely it must have earthly subjects over which it can exercise that dominion. We have yet to answer what kind of Kingdom shall it be, what shall its rulers be like, what conditions shall it effect and what will happen to those who oppose it etc etc

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes but we are not yet finished with the Kingdom, for if we state that it shall take dominion over the earth, then surely it must have earthly subjects over which it can exercise that dominion. We have yet to answer what kind of Kingdom shall it be, what shall its rulers be like, what conditions shall it effect and what will happen to those who oppose it etc etc

To be truthful, I have not cracked open the book of Daniel yet (in this discussion). I guess I don't have the heart right now to do so. I need to pray about it.

But what maintream Christianity doesn't talk about much is the millennial kingdom of 1,000 years.

During that time certain promises to the nation of Israel, God will fulfill. And certain rewards to the Christian church will be given to those who Christ deems as overcomers during the church age.

When Revelation speaks of Christ and His overcomers shepherding the nations I think this means His reign over the globe. For one thousand years He will reign from Jerusalem and act as a strong "Shephered" putting the various nations in line.

Now, who are these nations? They are the people remaining from the great tribulation who will be transfered into the next age. This is elborated on in the Gospel of Matthew. Especially chapter 25 speaks of the sheep nations who will "inherit the kingdom" prepared for them from the foundation of the world.

In other words these peoples will be restored to the state that Adam and Eve lived in before they fell besause of thier disobedience.

There will be healing. There are healings today by the miraculous work of God. But today the Christians are only have tasted the powers of the age to come (Hebrews 6:5) .

The Jehovah's Witnesses are very excited about these things. I think that the see their destiny as being among the nations transfered from the church age, through the great tribulation, and into the millennial kingdom.

But the tragedy is that on their supposed way they teach that Christ is not Deity and is not God incarnate. So it is doubtful, or at the very least, risky to assume that they will not be lost to perdition.

I cannot be the judge of this on a case by case individual matter. But the sheep in Matthew 25 did not know who Jesus Christ was. They asked the King when they did these things to the Lord. And He says that as they did it to the least of His brothers they did it to Him.

The same is the case with the goats. I do not think they knew about the gospel of the grace of God. And you Jehovah's Witnesses do and worst of all you are taught to oppose this gospel. That is why you go door to door to teach people about the Jehovah's Witnesses, witnessing for Jehovah, and teaching people (eventually once they are caught by much flowery talk) that there is [no] God come in the Son Christ.

Rather, you teach them to want to go back to the Old Testament in many ways and regard Jesus as an angel - Michael.

When the King comes to such survivors of the great tribulation I am concerned that such people, when standing before Christ at His throne of glory in Jerusalem, will be able to excuse themselves.

I think instead that such heretical teachers are the tares that the angels of Christ will separate from the wheat. And you know what happens to the tares is terrible. They will be cast into a furnace of fire.

So it is good that you are very eager about the millennial kingdom. I am as well. But it is not good that you are teaching "another Jesus" in the meantime.

I'll stop here this morning. But I pray for you. And you need to pray to make sure that you are not teaching "another Jesus" from what the New Testament really teaches.

Originally posted by jaywill
To be truthful, I have not cracked open the book of Daniel yet (in this discussion). I guess I don't have the heart right now to do so. I need to pray about it.

But what maintream Christianity doesn't talk about much is the millennial kingdom of 1,000 years.

During that time certain promises to the nation of Israel, God will fulfill. And certain re not teaching [b]"another Jesus" from what the New Testament really teaches.[/b]

yes we are excited by it, for it will settle all universal issues, that being the sanctification of Gods name (for which Christ asked us to pray, our father sanctified be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done in heaven and on earth etc) and it will establish Gods sovereignty, no more will anyone be able to state that God is a liar, that he was withholding something good from mankind, that independence was beneficial. Both of these issues will be resolved when the Kingdom emancipates mankind from corrupt and unjust human rulership.

Christ as king of Gods Kingdom shall usher in a period of untold peace, he truly will become a wonderful counsellor, eternal father and a prince of peace. Imagine having Jesus Christ as your ruler, one who is able to sympathise with our frailties and who has the desire and the power to make us physically and spiritually whole, free from sin and its corrosive influence. If you were going to live in a paradise would you not also be existed? Yes Jaywill, please pay for me, for i have not made a few mistakes in my lifetime 🙂

Note : we do not hold that Jesus is just any angel, he is the arch angel, the only one mentioned in scripture, above all other spiritual sons of God, the only begotten son in fact. An angel to us is simply a spirit creature, a spiritual son of God and a messenger, why you should object to this i do not know, other than your adherence to the trinity? But i wont go there.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes we are excited by it, for it will settle all universal issues, that being the sanctification of Gods name (for which Christ asked us to pray, our father sanctified be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done in heaven and on earth etc) and it will establish Gods sovereignty, no more will anyone be able to state that God is a liar, that he ...[text shortened]... ld object to this i do not know, other than your adherence to the trinity? But i wont go there.

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Christ as king of Gods Kingdom shall usher in a period of untold peace, he truly will become a wonderful counsellor, eternal father and a prince of peace. Imagine having Jesus Christ as your ruler, one who is able to sympathise with our frailties and who has the desire and the power to make us physically and spiritually whole, free from sin and its corrosive influence. If you were going to live in a paradise would you not also be existed? Yes Jaywill, please pay for me, for i have not made a few mistakes in my lifetime

Note : we do not hold that Jesus is just any angel, he is the arch angel, the only one mentioned in scripture, above all other spiritual sons of God, the only begotten son in fact. An angel to us is simply a spirit creature, a spiritual son of God and a messenger, why you should object to this i do not know, other than your adherence to the trinity? But i wont go there.
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If Jesus is called then the Eternal Father are there TWO Eternal Fathers ?

Originally posted by jaywill
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Christ as king of Gods Kingdom shall usher in a period of untold peace, he truly will become a wonderful counsellor, eternal father and a prince of peace. Imagine having Jesus Christ as your ruler, one who is able to sympathise with our frailties and who has the desire and the power to make us physically and spiritua ...[text shortened]... =============

If Jesus is called then the Eternal Father are there TWO Eternal Fathers ?[/b]

If Jesus is called then the Eternal Father are there TWO Eternal Fathers ?

You should know better than that Jaywill for Christ refers to God, as his father,

(Matthew 6:9) . . .“you must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.

(Matthew 5:16)  Likewise let your light shine before men, that they may see your fine works and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens.

(Matthew 7:21) . . .“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. . .

What is the meaning of the term eternal father and at Isaiah 9:6? Clearly it is a prophetic reference to Christ! In what capacity is Christ termed, eternal father? In the capacity that those who really put faith in the ransom sacrifice of the Christ will see eternal life, for Christ has both the will and the power to bring sin and death to nothing. He will also use his authority to bring back those who have died in ignorance through the foretold resurrection, thus becoming a life giver or father to them.

(Romans 6:23) . . .For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.

(John 11:25-26) . . .Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;  and everyone that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?”

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
If Jesus is called then the Eternal Father are there TWO Eternal Fathers ?

You should know better than that Jaywill for Christ refers to God, as his father,

(Matthew 6:9) . . .“you must pray, then, this way: “‘[b]Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.

(Matthew 5:16)  Likewise let your light shine before men, that they ...[text shortened]... d everyone that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?”[/b]

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What is the meaning of the term eternal father and at Isaiah 9:6? Clearly it is a prophetic reference to Christ! In what capacity is Christ termed, eternal father? In the capacity that those who really put faith in the ransom sacrifice of the Christ will see eternal life, for Christ has both the will and the power to bring sin and death to nothing. He will also use his authority to bring back those who have died in ignorance through the foretold resurrection, thus becoming a life giver or father to them.
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It seems then that you teach that there are two Eternal Fathers.

You teach that there is the Eternal Father that Jesus prayed to, obeyed, and taught of in, ie. the Gospel of Matthew. And there is another Eternal Father in Isaiah 9:6.

For Isaiah 9:6 does not speak of a Temporary Father or a Father for only 1,000 years. But it says that this "son" who is "given" shall be called Eternal Father.

So you have TWO Eternal Fathers.

My Bible only has ONE Eternal Father - ONE Father Who is of eternity. And that Father is Jehovah God. My Bible does not have TWO Eternal Fathers one of which is temporary.

"For You are our Father, Since Abraham does not know us, And Israel does not acknowledge us, You, JEHOVAH, are our Father; Our Redeemer from of old is Your name." (Isaiah 63:16,17)

"But now, Jehovah, You are our Father; We are the clay; and You, our Potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand." (Isaiah 64:8)

So the Father spoken of by Jesus is God in the book of Matthew (6:9;5:26;7:21). And the Son who is given in the prophesy of Isaiah 9:6 must also be God.
This is very mysterious.

But Paul did write "And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh ..." (See 1 Tim. 3:16)



Now you said that Christ will give life in the millennium. But does Christ give life today on this thrid day of Febuary ? Do you teach that TODAY, in this very year, Jesus Christ can give life ?

Can anyone reading this post today be given life by Christ or do they have to wait until they have physically died ?

Originally posted by jaywill
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What is the meaning of the term eternal father and at Isaiah 9:6? Clearly it is a prophetic reference to Christ! In what capacity is Christ termed, eternal father? In the capacity that those who really put faith in the ransom sacrifice of the Christ will see eternal life, for Christ has both the will and the oday be given life by Christ or do they have to wait until they have physically died ?[/b]

No we do not teach that there are two eternal fathers, i gave you the reasons why Christ is referred to as eternal father at Isaiah 9:6.

Yes we believe that if you adopt Christ in word and deed you will see life, as of today. Indeed we teach that Christ is a model (Greek hypergrammos) to be followed and that only by conforming ones life to the example of Christ can one find life (he that gives up his soul shall find life). This is not a mere intellectual or emotional acceptance, a persons faith is evident through works, 'befitting repentance', and as Christ did, we take seriously the commission to try to reach as many persons as possible with the 'message of salvation'. Indeed i am completely convinced that one experiences through the operation of Gods Holy spirit, walking with Christ, while engaging in this work of salvation. Why? for Christ himself tells us he will be with us.

(Matthew 28:19-20) . . .Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And, look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No we do not teach that there are two eternal fathers, i gave you the reasons why Christ is referred to as eternal father at Isaiah 9:6.

Yes we believe that if you adopt Christ in word and deed you will see life, as of today. Indeed we teach that Christ is a model (Greek hypergrammos) to be followed and that only by conforming ones life to the ex And, look! [b]I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”[/b]

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No we do not teach that there are two eternal fathers, i gave you the reasons why Christ is referred to as eternal father at Isaiah 9:6.
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As long as you teach that the Son Who was given, the Son of God, is NOT Jehovah, you are teaching that there are two Eternal Fathers.

After the millennial kingdom and Christ "delivers up the kingdom to His God and Father" (1 Cor. 15:24) is He then no longer the Eternal Father ?

If you say yes then He is not a Father who is eternal is He ?

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Yes we believe that if you adopt Christ in word and deed you will see life, as of today. Indeed we teach that Christ is a model (Greek hypergrammos) to be followed and that only by conforming ones life to the example of Christ can one find life (he that gives up his soul shall find life).
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The life given up is the psyche life - the soul. And in that passage the life found in response to giving up the psyche soul is also the soul.

The life that Jesus said He is is the zoe or the divine life.

And you are talking about imitation. Yes, Christ is a model. But Christ became the zoe life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45). This not for imitation in some mechanical way but for Christ as the Spirit of divine zoe life living within the believers.

Your imitation of the "model" of Jesus is like a dog walking on its hind legs like a man. It is like a chimp dressed as a man. This is the kind of imitation of the model you are being taught by the Watchtower.

The New Testament is talking of Jesus Christ coming to live within the believer, out from the believer and being his or her divine life in this age.

"For to me to live, is Christ ..." ( Phil. 1:21a)

"I am crucified with Chist, and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me ... (Gal. 2:20)

"In this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, that He has given to us of His Spirit." (1 John 4:13)


Instead of imitate Christ like a poodle walking on its back legs like a man you have to receive the life giving Spirit who IS Christ into your innermost spiritual being.

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This is not a mere intellectual or emotional acceptance, a persons faith is evident through works, 'befitting repentance', and as Christ did, we take seriously the commission to try to reach as many persons as possible with the 'message of salvation'. Indeed i am completely convinced that one experiences through the operation of Gods Holy spirit, walking with Christ, while engaging in this work of salvation. Why? for Christ himself tells us he will be with us.
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Your Jesus is an angel Michael who came to set an example. And you are attempting to follow the example in the power of your good flesh.

This is different from what the New Testament really teaches. You are using the same words but you have a Watchtower dictionary which is twisting these matters to teach "another Jesus" .

How then do you know that you are really a saved person if (God forbid) you should give up your soul tonight ?

If you awake in the fire as the rich man did when he died, the Watchtower teachers will not be able to do anything.

So you are imitating an angel Michael ?

Originally posted by jaywill
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No we do not teach that there are two eternal fathers, i gave you the reasons why Christ is referred to as eternal father at Isaiah 9:6.
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As long as you teach that the Son Who was given, the Son of God, is NOT Jehovah, you are teaching that there are two Eternal Fathers.

, look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”[/b]

i dont like the tone of your post Jaywill, you are belittling a public ministry that has helped millions of persons overcome all manner of bad circumstances from poverty to serious addiction to prostitution. Indeed if Christ is with us, you may really be speaking against the Christ and more seriously opposing the operation of Gods Holy spirit, of which there is no forgiveness, for clearly Christ states that he will send Holy Spirit to help those in the preaching and teaching work.

(Matthew 12:30) . . .He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.

I would be very careful if i were you Jaywill, i mean that seriously. To argue over doctrine is one thing, to speak against the goodnews and the efforts of other Christians to help people quite another.

(Romans 14:4) . . .Who are you to judge the house servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand.

(John 15:26-27) . . .When the helper arrives that I will send you from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which proceeds from the Father, that one will bear witness about me;  and you, in turn, are to bear witness, because you have been with me from when I began.