03 Feb 11
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieerased
i dont like the tone of your post Jaywill, you are belittling a public ministry that has helped millions of persons overcome all manner of bad circumstances from poverty to serious addiction to prostitution. Indeed if Christ is with us, you may really be speaking against the Christ and more seriously opposing the operation of Gods Holy spirit, of whi ...[text shortened]... me; and you, in turn, are to bear witness, because you have been with me from when I began.[/b]
03 Feb 11
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Originally posted by jaywillAs far as i can tell Jaywill i have been nothing but friendly during the course of this discussion and others, indeed i have went out of my way to avoid any controversy. We are of course not simply talking of humanitarian works, but of helping others apply Bible principles in their lives.
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i dont like the tone of your post Jaywill, you are belittling a public ministry that has helped millions of persons overcome all manner of bad circumstances from poverty to serious addiction to prostitution. Indeed if Christ is with us, you may really be speaking against the Christ and more seriously opposing the o ot unto God. It is more difficult to see that one's good works may be a distraction from truth.[/b]
I must stress we are not in the habit of making so called, rice Christians'. It is through the application of Biblical principles which helps people, through the cultivation of a relationship with God and Christ not through purely humanitarian works, we are after all, meant to be , teachers of Gods word. was not the Christ himself termed, Rabboni', meaning teacher?
03 Feb 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI am going to erase the previous post.
As far as i can tell Jaywill i have been nothing but friendly during the course of this discussion and others, indeed i have went out of my way to avoid any controversy. We are of course not simply talking of humanitarian works, but of helping others apply Bible principles in their lives.
I must stress we are not in the habit of making so calle ...[text shortened]... to be , teachers of Gods word. was not the Christ himself termed, Rabboni', meaning teacher?
You have been civil lately.
03 Feb 11
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillyes but you are correct, i have been less than so in the past and probably deserve worse than you have given me. I must say Jay i do learn stuff from you and its not always possible to get an insight into another person perspective so i thank you for that. My own thoughts on the matter are, that surely despite our fundamental differences there must be some points of common ground that we can discuss. I dont mind at all talking about Jesus, in fact, i dont think we Witnesses do it enough 🙂
I am going to erase the previous post.
You have been civil lately.
03 Feb 11
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Your concept of Christ giving life is really Christ being an example or model for man to imitate as best as he can.
This is not the Christ of the New Testament.
The Christ of the New Testament is the Christ who is the divine life giving Spirit to give Himself into man to make an abode within them (John 14:23)
This requires to be born again. Birth is the giving of life. We are born once with the natural life. We must receive Jesus Christ as the life giving Spirit into us to have the second birth.
One does not have to know a lot of doctrine. But one must open up his or heart to the Lord Jesus.
How can you do that if you are constantly taught that Christ is not the Divine One to be received but only a arch angel who became a man to imitate, I do not know.
The New Testament says "No one can say, Jesus is Lord! except in the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3) .
Do the Jehovah's Witnesses encourage you to call "Lord Jesus. My Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus, I love You and You are my Lord." ?
03 Feb 11
Originally posted by jaywillmy wife wants to use the pc, i am being booted, ill shall get back to you later - take care - robbie 🙂
Your concept of Christ giving life is really Christ being an example or model for man to imitate as best as he can.
This is not the Christ of the New Testament.
The Christ of the New Testament is the Christ who is the divine [b]life giving Spirit to give Himself into man to make an abode within them (John 114:23)
This requires to be ...[text shortened]... to call "Lord Jesus. My Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus, I love You and You are my Lord." ?[/b]
03 Feb 11
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillactually it is,
Your concept of Christ giving life is really Christ being an example or model for man to imitate as best as he can.
This is not the Christ of the New Testament.
The Christ of the New Testament is the Christ who is the divine [b]life giving Spirit to give Himself into man to make an abode within them (John 14:23)
This requires to be [ to call "Lord Jesus. My Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus, I love You and You are my Lord." ?[/b]
(1 Peter 2:21) . . .In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. . .
Indeed one can state quite easily that the sole purpose of the existence of the Christian congregation was to preach and teach the good news of Gods Kingdom, all other acts and agencies are subject to this,
(1 Peter 2:8-10) . . .These are stumbling because they are disobedient to the word. To this very end they were also appointed. But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light
We can state that this public ministry in conjunction with Jesus Christ is the utmost expression of love and mercy, for as Paul states, how will people get saved if nobody is sent to them? Thus Gods love, mercy, justice and wisdom are all expressed through this public ministry, for it forms a basis for those who are deemed to be worthy of life, for as Paul clearly states we are substituting for him as ambassadors through this ministry of reconciliation, trying to reconcile people back to God.
This appears to me to be the main difference between our form of worship and other Christians where they emphasise personal salvation, Jesus in me etc whereas we are deeply concerned about not only ourselves, but others as well. This is deeply Christian for it appears to us that self sacrifice is what Christianity is really about.
03 Feb 11
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobie=====================================
actually it is,
(1 Peter 2:21) . . .In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, [b]leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. . .
Indeed one can state quite easily that the sole purpose of the existence of the Christian congregation was to preach and teach the good news of Gods Kingdom, all ...[text shortened]... deeply Christian for it appears to us that self sacrifice is what Christianity is really about.[/b]
(1 Peter 2:21) . . .In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. . .
===================================
You are quite correct. He does say there that Christ is a model.
What else does Peter say? He says that the saved Christians have become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4)
Now CREATED man, even though he has fallen into sin, does have something in him by creation which God said was very good. Though there is something good in us by which we could imitate a model of a good man, this is not "the divine nature" . The "divine nature" is something the redeemed inherit through the born again experience which Peter calls "regeneration".
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has REGENERATED us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Peter 1:3)
Regeneration has brought the divine nature into the innermost kernel and spirit of the ones who receive Christ into them. Since this nature is of a living Person Peter calls it "a living hope" . This nature is a living Person dispensed into the redeemed.
Peter again discribes the beginning of a new life through the living word of God:
"As newborn babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that you may grow unto salvation." ( 1Peter 2:2). The phrase "newborn babes" indicates a spiritual life has been BORN within them.
The living according to the model is not in the good natural life of the created man. It is by living in the realm of the divine nature that the believer has received through the born again experience; through "regeneration". The living Person within him is then "a living hope".
In fact Peter learned this lesson the hard way. He insisted that he would be so faithful to Jesus until the end. But at the end of the day he denied Him three times with cursing, and that before a little slave girl.
His natural zeal could not make it. Neither can ours. He is a representative of all of us in the natural realm. We need the Spirit of Christ within. And that we can only have as we are washed in His blood of eternal redemption.
So the model following of Peter is a following by allowing the divine life to grow within after the new birth. Jesus said "Beause I live you also will live" (John 14:19)
Because He lives in resurrection and came come into us when we are saved, we also can live through Him. It is Christ Himself that we must receive. Then we understand what Paul means when He says the Lord is with out spirit.
"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." ( 2 Tim. 4:22)
The Christian can follow the model only because the model has come into him and is with his innermost spiritual being. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ is with his spirit:
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit." ( Phil. 4:23)
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers ..." ( Gal. 6:18)
The Model in the pages of the New Testament has to also be the living One who through regeneration has come to be with your spirit.
03 Feb 11
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillThe Model in the pages of the New Testament has to also be the living One who through regeneration has come to be with your spirit.
[b]=====================================
(1 Peter 2:21) . . .In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. . .
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You are quite correct. He does say there that Christ is a model.
What else does Peter say? He says living One who through regeneration has come to be with your spirit.[/b]
that is an incredibly interesting statement, it needs some thought before i can reply 🙂
03 Feb 11
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Originally posted by jaywill"because I live, you also will live"......yes that's true, because Jesus knew he was an eternal spiritual being and so is everyone else.
[b]=====================================
(1 Peter 2:21) . . .In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. . .
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You are quite correct. He does say there that Christ is a model.
What else does Peter say? He says living One who through regeneration has come to be with your spirit.[/b]
He is telling them they are also spiritual beings... eternally.
Every living being, is an eternal spiritual being in the moment of NOW.
Forget the blood...the blood is not important, it never is and never was, but living the spiritual life without error is important.
03 Feb 11
1 edit
Originally posted by vishvahetu=====================================
"because I live, you also will live"......yes that's true, because Jesus knew he was an eternal spiritual being and so is everyone else.
He is telling them they are also spiritual beings... eternally.
Every living being, is an eternal spiritual being in the moment of NOW.
Forget the blood...the blood is not important, it never is and never was, but living the spiritual life without error is important.
Forget the blood...the blood is not important, it never is and never was, but living the spiritual life without error is important.
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Nay. But the blood of Jesus Christ God's Son cleanses us from all sin.
04 Feb 11
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Originally posted by jaywillThe Christian can follow the model only because the model has come into him and is with his innermost spiritual being. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ is with his spirit - Jaywill
[b]=====================================
(1 Peter 2:21) . . .In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. . .
===================================
You are quite correct. He does say there that Christ is a model.
What else does Peter say? He says living One who through regeneration has come to be with your spirit.[/b]
this i think is also a difference, for example we advocate study as a way to getting to know Christ, this is based on the following,
(John 17:3) . . .This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. . .
Secondly, there is a scripture that has a bearing on this, for certainly we profess a regeneration of the man, or lady for that matter,
(Ephesians 4:20-24) . . .But you did not learn the Christ to be so, provided, indeed, that you heard him and were taught by means of him, just as truth is in Jesus, that you should put away the old personality which conforms to your former course of conduct and which is being corrupted according to his deceptive desires; but that you should be made new in the force actuating your mind, and should put on the new personality which was created according to God’s will in true righteousness and loyalty.
From this we can see that getting to know Christ is done through learning about him through study (the scripture mentions to learn the Christ) and then apply that knowledge in our lives and with the help of Gods Holt spirit (the force actuating upon the mind) this knowledge shall percolate from our minds to our hearts and move us to be Christ like.
Clearly this is quite different to saying that Christ himself actually is inside the heart of the believer but it does not make it any less so, for clearly the Holy spirit is operative at every point, for we take in knowledge from the spirit inspired word of God, the spirit actuates upon our minds and as we take in that knowledge our own spirit is brought into conformity with the will of God.
04 Feb 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobie=====================================
The Christian can follow the model only because the model has come into him and is with his innermost spiritual being. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ is with his spirit - Jaywill
this i think is also a difference, for example we advocate study as a way to getting to know Christ, this is based on the following,
(John 17:3) . . .This means ...[text shortened]... and as we take in that knowledge our own spirit is brought into conformity with the will of God.
this i think is also a difference, for example we advocate study as a way to getting to know Christ, this is based on the following,
==================================
Would you say that your "getting to know Christ" is the same as your "getting to know" any good person in history ?
Would it be the same as "getting to know Araham Lincoln" or "getting to know Aristotle" or even a biblical figure like "getting to know David, or Joseph or Abraham or Samuel"?
What is the difference between your "getting to know" any other good man in history whom you wish to emulate and "getting to know Christ"?
"But you did not so LEARN CHRIST ... vs
" . . .But you did not learn the Christ to be so, "
The former accurate translation is more subjective. It is Christ Himself that the believer learned. The latter paraphrase is objective - learning ABOUT Christ. He does not have to be living and experiencial.
"If indeed you have HEARD HIM and have been taught IN HIM as the reality is in Jesus" vs
" provided, indeed, that you heard him and were taught by means of him, just as truth is in Jesus, "
That is not too bad perhaps.
"That you put off, as regards your former manner of life, the old man" vs
" ... that you should put away the old personality which conforms to your former course of conduct"
Your paraphrase here is similar to the New American Standard. But "old man" is more then just a personal quirks. It is the entire fallen humanity inherited from Adam. "Our old man has been crucified in order that the body of sin might be annulled" (Rom. 6:6)
Christ has crucified the old man and created in Himself the one new man. This is a matter somewhat more then old individual personal perculiarities. It is more then personal new good traits.
The entire old fallen Adamic nature Christ has crucified. Through living in the Spirit this co-crucifixion becomes experiencial to the believer by faith. For it is in the Holy Spirit. And the "one new man" created in Christ also is a corporate new humanity mingled with God, united with the divine nature.
This is more then "turning over a new leaf" or self reforming or self improvement. This is God Himself being dispensed into the believers transforming them into a new humanity. That is a race of God-men - people in whom the living God dwells.
"which is being corrupted according to the lusts of THE DECEIT" vs
" and which is being corrupted according to his deceptive desires; "
The deceit - the specific deceit is really Satan himself who has injected his evil nature into man through the fall of Adam. A foreign parasitic and evil thing has attached itself to man. And that thing is "THE DECEIT".
This is similar to Jesus praying not "Deliver us from evil" but rather "Deliver us from the evil ONE" .
" be renewed in the spirit of your mind" vs
" but that you should be made new in the force actuating your mind,"
I think the Recovery Version is better. The human spirit was meant to be the highest part of man's being with mind (a part of the soul) subject to it. In the fall of man the human spirit became comatose and deadened. That is why the human spirit needs to be reborn in regeneration by the Holy Spirit:
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)
The deadened and comatose kernel of man's being, the human spirit is resurrected and enlivened at the new birth event by the Holy Spirit which is God Himself. The human spirit is the small s "spirit". And the Holy Spirit Who is God is the capital s "Spirit".
That which is born of the [capital S Spirit Who is God] is [the small s human] spirit."
God Himself causes the human spirit to be resurrected from its dead state and "born again". Afterwhich the regenerated human spirit is UNITED and MINGLED with God Himself:
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17) The two spirits have been mingled within the man to become "one spirit".
THEREFORE the apostle can now say "The Lord be with YOUR spirit" (2 Tim. 4:22) By being saved we become joined as one mingled spirit with God. The Lord Jesus Christ is WITH our spirit if we are born again. And " ... the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you ..." (Rom. 8:11)
He bears witness within along with the born again human spirit that the forgiven believer is now in God's family -
"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God" (Rom. 8:16)
This is something that the world cannot give. And it cannot take it away. It is also something that religion cannot give or take away. If you can come into a religion because of a good argument a better argument can take you out. Only God Himself can come into a man and bear witness with his spirit that he is one of the children of God.
Going back to Ephesians 4 "the spirit of the mind" I think just means that the regenerated spirit ascends again to take its place above the human mind. To be honest, the New Testament also has the phrase "the mind of the spirit".
But anyway, for now, I mean to emphasize that the Person of Christ living within the human spirit is the normal Christian life. As this indwelling Person, the life giving Spirit spreads into the soul the believer is putting on "the new man".
I will have to stop here for length's sake.
"Christ in you the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27) is not sentimental talk. It is Christ actually living in the forgiven sinner Who is the hope of glorification. And for "the Spirit of the One who raised Christ Jesus from the dead" to dwell in the forgiven is the same as Christ living in them:
"But if Christ is in you, ... And if the Spirit of the One who raised Christ Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life ... by His Spirit who indwells you." (See Rom. 8:10-11)
The Spirit of the One who raised Christ Jesus from the dead is interchangeably used with "Christ" . This is another reason why the term Triune God is helpful. In Romans 8:9-11 -
The Spirit of God = the Spirit of Christ = Christ = The Spirit of the One who raised Christ Jesus from the dead.
But only those with subjective experience of the new birth could possibly appreciate this. God is in Christ and Christ "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) And you would do well to pray to tell Jehovah that in all cases, you WANT Jehovah God to dwell in you.
04 Feb 11
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Originally posted by jaywillthis is all very well Jaywill but it rely on rather tenuous interpretations of scripture especially with regard to the term Spirit which has various connotations depending on the context. Clearly we are to take in knowledge, Paul qualifies this statement,
[b]=====================================
this i think is also a difference, for example we advocate study as a way to getting to know Christ, this is based on the following,
==================================
Would you say that your "getting to know Christ" is the same as your "getting to know" any good person in history ?
Would it be n[/b] you.[/b]
(Romans 12:2) . . .but be transformed by making your mind over, that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Thus we can see that we are transformed from our old course of conduct through making our minds over, this of course is done through knowledge and study.
Also Paul speaks of having the mind of Christ,
(1 Corinthians 2:14-16) . . .But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know [them], because they are examined spiritually. However, the spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ.
Indeed, what did Paul mean by this statement that the spiritual man has the mind of Christ, for clearly it is not made with reference to anything other than an intellectual capacity, to know his pattern of thinking, to have a deep and full grasp of his personality.
Indeed Peter writes ,
(1 Peter 4:1) . . .Therefore since Christ suffered in the flesh, you too arm yourselves with the same mental disposition; because the person that has suffered in the flesh has desisted from sins,
and Paul
(Romans 15:5) . . .Now may the God who supplies endurance and comfort grant you to have among yourselves the same mental attitude that Christ Jesus had,
Thus clearly what is being advocated is something more than a kind of emotional acceptance, one must really study and meditate deeply to really grasp the personality revealed to us in scripture. Nor is it merely an intellectual exercise, for unless the knowledge moves us to action, it remains nothing but a clashing cymbal. What i am trying to say is that it seems to me that the truth of the matter is somewhere in between, for clearly Holy Spirit is operative, but then so is the admonition to take in knowledge, thus rather than it being a purely emotional acceptance or clinical head knowledge, its is a culmination of both.