Originally posted by FabianFnas=======================================
You don't discuss, you throw verses on eachother.
The bible is so hard to interprete, therefore so badly written, so even christians themselves cannot agree to the proper meaning of the good book. Or rather, not so good book. Quite lousy book, in fact.
One of you twoo cannot be a real christian if you are not agreeing of the meaning of the verses yo point of view. But who of you two, I wonder, is not a real christian according tot the other?
You don't discuss, you throw verses on eachother.
The bible is so hard to interprete, therefore so badly written, so even christians themselves cannot agree to the proper meaning of the good book. Or rather, not so good book. Quite lousy book, in fact.
One of you twoo cannot be a real christian if you are not agreeing of the meaning of the verses you throw on eachother. Only real christians agree to the interpretation, as it was meant to be read. He, who doesn't not agree, cannot be a real christian from the other point of view. But who of you two, I wonder, is not a real christian according tot the other?
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FabianFnas, I do not mind someone telling me that I am quoting too many verses from the Bible. I have had people tell me "Oh I wish you would tell me in your own words."
I recongnize that there is a place for giving one's own words. But I'm not too impressed when the objector's reason is that he thinks the Bible is a lousy book, badly written, or worthless, of low value etc.
When I was a skeptic I use to argue a lot with one particular Christian friend. I don't recall those arguments. I don't remember the point I was putting forth or the point my Christian friend was defending.
Today, of those debates, the only thing I can remember is the one time he spoke to me of what the Bible said. Somehow that got infused into my heart.
Because of this personal experience I have a habit of using the Bible itself in all my debates or discussions of the Christian Faith. I happen to put the quotes in bold black with a reference. I could just a well not use quotation marks and simply fit it into the flow of the conversation as if it were my own words. The effect would probably be the same.
But I think others experience may be like my own. I suspect that some people reading these posts, years from now, may have Jesus Christ become real to them as well. I wager that they're not going to remember all these points of debate or maybe who said what.
I suspect the Holy Spirit of God will bring to their rememberance something written in the word of God the Holy Bible. His word is fertile and living. His word is spirit and life. It is like radiation and transfuses something of God's element into the ready and open heart.
I think some people will come to know Jesus Christ something similar to my experience. Maybe years latter the only thing they seem to recall is some living and powerful passage from the Bible.
I am sorry you don't like to see me quote verses so much. I can't agree with your characterizing the wonderful Bible as a lousy book badly written. You need to read it with the excercise of a praying spirit for nourishment and enlightenment. When God's words are found one should "eat" them. They will nourish and feed a part of your being that nothing else in the world can touch.
I spared you direct quotes in this post. Jesus loves you.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieOh well the perspectives of each individual regarding this case differ a lot, my trusty feer
Great and illustrious beetle, greetings from our little scraggy island, how happy i am to make my defence before you, a man well versed in the controversies of the Christians.
Firstly it became apparent that if there is a consistent theme running though the teachings of Christianity, it was this one under question, the Kingdom of God. As far as ...[text shortened]... e of these before the cannons were loaded, it would have been fine, but alas it was not to be.
😵
Originally posted by robbie carrobie================================
Any way, 1 Corinthians 2:14
we translate as the Physical man, and with sound basis,
Physical man, Greek, Psuchikos
1. of or belonging to breath
2. having the nature and characteristics of the breath
3. the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes
4. governed by breath
...[text shortened]... .org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1+corinthians+2%3A14§ion=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na&Enter=Perform+Search
Any way, 1 Corinthians 2:14
we translate as the Physical man, and with sound basis,
Physical man, Greek, Psuchikos
1. of or belonging to breath
2. having the nature and characteristics of the breath
3. the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes
4. governed by breath
5. the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion
Translated Words
KJV (6) - natural, 4; sensual, 2;
NAS (6) - natural, 5; worldly-minded, 1
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I am not going to quote verses too much in this response.
But in First Corinthians Paul talks about the SOULISH man and the FLESHY or FLESHLY man and the SPIRITUAL man.
Now just focusing on the soulish man for a moment. Paul's discussion of the soulish man includes the man who is given over to human philosophy. You see he is not so concerned with the soulish man being lustful in body, greedy for physical pleasures and appetites of the body. The soulish man can be destracted by Greek philosophy. He can be led astray from Christ because of the excessive activity of a philosophical intellect.
This is one reason that Paul told these Christians in the Greek city of Corinth that he determined to know nothing among them except Christ and Christ crucified. Paul was educated enough to engage them in Greek philosophical debates. But he purposely did not want to give ground to the soulish ones among them.
Their intellectual SOULS were over excerted in the surrounding cultures Greek philosophy so as to destract them from the living available Christ in their spirit.
Not only over active philosophical minds were a problem in the church in Corinth. Also some too religious and occupied with Jewish religion. These two were soulish peoples with soulish problems.
In the same epistle Paul devotes time to the FLESHLY believer who is given to fornication and other sins of the physical body. But the soulish man's problem is more in the unrenewed intellect whose mind is not yet under the proper enfluence of the Holy Spirit in their human spirit.
In the New Testament the human spirit is the innermost kernel of the man. This is surrounded, so to speak, by the human soul. And the soul is surrounded, so to speak, by the human body.
Now look at your KJV (of which I am not any particular fan) and compare it with what your NWT says on this passage: 1 Thess. 5:23. What is the difference if any ?
KJV should probably say "your spirit and soul and body". What does the New World Translation say there ?
Robbie, the PSUCHE is the SOUL. The study of PSYCHOLOGY is the study of the mind or the soul. This English word SOUL or SELF comes from PSUCHE in Greek. I am not sure how the Latin relates at the moment.
The SOULISH Man has spiritual problems because of an undwelt with SOUL. That includes his mind. That includes his SELF.
And our PSUCHE - ology (ie. Psychology) is the study of the soul, particularly the mind.
The RcV New Testament often translates PSUCHE as "soul life". A man loses his "soul-life" that he may find it in Jesus Christ. By giving up his old self centered soul-life, in Jesus Christ he finds himself paradoxically. The man loved of God is the true identity. He finds himself in the love of Christ in the Christ centered new spiritual life.
The Soul in biblical terms = the mind and the emotion and the will.
Robbie,
We were talking about the kingdom of God. John talks about the new birth being in the human spirit. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Holy Spirit is the human spirit.
Can you think of ANY passage saying that the SOUL of man is reborn ?
If your Jehovah's Witness version of the "born again" experience is just something related to the mind gaining knowledge then you should be able to confirm this.
Do you see any passage in the New Testament saying the SOUL of the Christian is born of God ? Do you see any passage saying that a man's SOUL was regenerated ?
I submit that the accumulation of knowledge, even pious knowledge, even good doctrinal knowledge, even moral, ethical, biblical knowledge cannot EQUAL to be born of the Spirit in the human spirit.
Do you think that to be born anew is to get some correct Bible knowledge?
Do you think one who use to celebrate Christman but now sees its pagan roots and stops doing so, is being "born again" ?
Do you think that one learning that Jesus is not God but is afterall Michael the angel, is, because of this new information, "born of God"? (Not to say that such teaching is correct).
I fear that your concept of entering into the Kingdom of God (in the third chapter of John ) is essentially something in the SOUL, in the intellect, in the mind of man.
You learn some "accurate" new knowledge and thus are "born again".
This kind of understanding could be because those teaching you are doing the best they can with limited experience. Perhaps they have never been regenerated in their spirit. But they have the Bible so they interpret it relation to what they understand.
In parody -
Ie. "Born again" - to start following good teaching. Born again - to religiously improve yourself. Previously you had bad teaching from Babylon. Now you have good proper teaching from the Watchtower. You now know all about Jehovah and that Christmas and Easter are pagan. You are "born again". Now you see that Christ is Michael and that only 144,000 will be kings with Christ in Heaven. You are "born again" with proper teaching from the Watchtower.
But "born again" is about having an unusual yet real Person BORN within you. It is an organic new beginning for the one who receives Christ. But it is also Christ as a living seed of divine life BORN in your innermost being.
The kingdom of God, in this 3rd chapter of John, is about an "organic" conception of God Himself within a person. And that not in his SOUL but deeper still, in his human spirit - " ... that which is born of the Spirit is spirit".
Originally posted by jaywill(1 Thessalonians 5:23) May the very God of peace sanctify you completely. And sound in every respect may the spirit and soul and body of you brothers be preserved in a blameless manner at the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Any way, 1 Corinthians 2:14
we translate as the Physical man, and with sound basis,
Physical man, Greek, Psuchikos
1. of or belonging to breath
2. having the nature and characteristics of the breath
3. the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes
4. governed by breath
5 say "your spirit and soul and body". What does the New World Translation say there ?[/b]
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures
Originally posted by jaywillAdam became a living soul, as soon as God enthused life into Adam, with the breath of life animating his body, Adam became a living soul, literally 'a breathing entity'. Animals are also described as being souls!
Robbie, the PSUCHE is the SOUL. The study of PSYCHOLOGY is the study of the mind or the soul. This English word SOUL or SELF comes from PSUCHE in Greek. I am not sure how the Latin relates at the moment.
The SOULISH Man has spiritual problems because of an undwelt with SOUL. That includes his mind. That includes his SELF.
And our PSUCHE - ology ( new spiritual life.
The Soul in biblical terms = the mind and the emotion and the will.
Originally posted by jaywillJesus gave numerous references in parables directly relating to the Kingdom of God, please refer to those.
Robbie,
We were talking about the kingdom of God. John talks about the new birth being in the human spirit. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Holy Spirit is the human spirit.
Can you think of ANY passage saying that the SOUL of man is reborn ?
If your Jehovah's Witness version of the [b]"born again" experie ...[text shortened]... human spirit - " ... that which is born of the Spirit is spirit".[/b]
The spirit of the saved man is regenerated .
The soul of the saved is transformed.
And the body of the saved is transfigured.
The regeneration of the spirit only takes a second.
So also the transfiguration of the body takes place in the twinkling of an eye.
The transformation of the soul is a life long process. But both the transformation of the soul and the transfiguration of the body are dependent upon the regeneration of the spirit - being "born again"
One caveat. There is one verse which speaks of the restoration during the millennial kingdom as "the regeneration" . The Bible is difficult to systematize to the 100%. Total systemization of the Bible probably elludes us.
Even in the Old Testament some passages would be difficult to say spirit and soul were not being used somewhat interchangeably. But as the new covenant becomes revealed the distinction of soul and spirit becomes very clear.
Ie. "For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to teh dividing asunder of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow, and ablke to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Heb. 4:12)
The word of God can separate deep within a person the soul and the spirit. In this way a lover of Christ can learn to discern what is of himself and what is of the Holy Spirit within him. The thoughts and intentions of the heart are illuminated by the spiritual excercise over the living word of God.
The religious soul can be separated from the living and divinely infused regenerated human spirit.
Originally posted by jaywillKingdom of God, ringin any bells?
The spirit of the saved man is [b]regenerated .
The soul of the saved is transformed.
And the body of the saved is transfigured.
The regeneration of the spirit only takes a second.
So also the transfiguration of the body takes place in the twinkling of an eye.
The transformation of the soul is a life long process. But ...[text shortened]... gious soul can be separated from the living and divinely infused regenerated human spirit.[/b]
Originally posted by jaywill(Matthew 11:11-12) . . .Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. But from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it.
You [b]must be born again.[/b]
John the Baptist, apparently not party to the Kingdom of the heavens, yet a greater personage has not been born, interesting statement to make, considering he was a herald of the King and personally baptised him. Clearly it cannot be an inner state for Christ held John in the highest regard.