What Others Said about the Trinity

Originally posted by jaywill
Potamon of Heraklea

"Christ and the Apostles left us not a system of logic, nor a vain deceit, but the naked truth, to be guarded by faith and good works."

Paul of Tarsus :

..The head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Originally posted by jaywill
Augustine (A.D. 354 - 430 )

[b]"It was lawful through mere necessity of speaking and reasoning to say three Persons, not because Scripture says it, but because Scripture does not contradict it: whereas, if we're to say three Gods, Scripture would contradit it ...


What therefore remains, except that we confess that these terms sprang from the neces ...[text shortened]... ng, when copious reasoning was required against the devices or errors of the heretics." [/b]

Paul of Tarsus, who starts off most of his writings to the churches as follows :

Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

God and Christ are therefore two separate and distinct entities.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Paul of Tarsus, who starts off most of his writings to the churches as follows :

[b]Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

God and Christ are therefore two separate and distinct entities.[/b]

=============================
God and Christ are therefore two separate and distinct entities.
================================

Distinct, but not separate.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=============================
God and Christ are therefore two separate and distinct entities.
================================

Distinct, but not separate.[/b]

Distinct and Separate. Mark cousin of Barnabas of Jerusalem :

Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Separate. There are things known to God that Jesus Christ does not know.
Therefore God and Christ are SEPARATE BEINGS.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Distinct and Separate. Mark cousin of Barnabas of Jerusalem :

Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Separate. There are things known to God that Jesus Christ does not know.
Therefore God and Christ are SEPARATE BEINGS.

Human language is indeed a problem.

However "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God .." distinct

"and the Word was God" not separate.

Peace be to the brothers who choose different langauge to express this mystery. Some of us would say "distinct but not separate" base on John 1:1 and other passages.

Originally posted by jaywill
Human language is indeed a problem.

However [b]"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God .." distinct

"and the Word was God" not separate.

Peace be to the brothers who choose different langauge to express this mystery. Some of us would say "distinct but not separate" base on John 1:1 and other passages.[/b]

So you cannot explain the FACT that God has knowledge that Christ does not have? Therefore your conclusion that God and Christ are the same is incorrect.

Originally posted by jaywill
Human language is indeed a problem.

However [b]"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God .." distinct

"and the Word was God" not separate.

Peace be to the brothers who choose different langauge to express this mystery. Some of us would say "distinct but not separate" base on John 1:1 and other passages.[/b]

So you take the words of these men who do nothing but ramble with nonsence that makes no sense to anyone with any intelligence, instead of the word of God which very clearly teaches nothing even close to this paganistic trinity? It's amazing to comprehend this but then again it was fortold it would happen to many. Satan is a master of confusion......

Originally posted by galveston75
So you take the words of these men who do nothing but ramble with nonsence that makes no sense to anyone with any intelligence, instead of the word of God which very clearly teaches nothing even close to this paganistic trinity? It's amazing to comprehend this but then again it was fortold it would happen to many. Satan is a master of confusion......

I actually thought that Jaywill had the sense to see thats exactly what I was telling him. He quoted men who said God and Christ are one and the same. I quoted the Bible which said the opposite.

I dont understand why people get caught up in the teachings of men when the words of Christ and Paul are so crystal clear.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I actually thought that Jaywill had the sense to see thats exactly what I was telling him. He quoted men who said God and Christ are one and the same. I quoted the Bible which said the opposite.

I dont understand why people get caught up in the teachings of men when the words of Christ and Paul are so crystal clear.

I agree...

Originally posted by Rajk999
So you cannot explain the FACT that God has knowledge that Christ does not have? Therefore your conclusion that God and Christ are the same is incorrect.

===================================
So you cannot explain the FACT that God has knowledge that Christ does not have? Therefore your conclusion that God and Christ are the same is incorrect.
======================================

It is obvious that as a man Jesus at times did not have the knowledge of something other men or that His Father had.

I don't need to explain it. I need to believe it.

And with that I also believe that the Word was God and that the Word became flesh.

I choose to embrace ALL that the Scriptures say about the Triune God.

I choose to believe it when it stresses the matter of Three.
I choose also to believe it when it emphasizes the matter of One.

I choose to say "Amen" to the word of God and not use one group of passages to fight against another group.

I choose to trust God that paradoxical aspects of the nature of God are both true even though human language and human reasoning have difficulty reconciling the paradoxes.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===================================
So you cannot explain the FACT that God has knowledge that Christ does not have? Therefore your conclusion that God and Christ are the same is incorrect.
======================================

It is obvious that as a man Jesus at times did not have the knowledge of something other men or that His Fath ...[text shortened]... rue even though human language and human reasoning have difficulty reconciling the paradoxes.[/b]

Certainly you are entitled to your beliefs. The thing is, are you able to see that there is sufficient evidence in the Bible to cause someone to believe that God and Christ are not one and the same being ? I guess you cannot.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I dont understand why people get caught up in the teachings of men when the words of Christ and Paul are so crystal clear.

Yes. Very clearly in favour of the Trinity, as St. Augustine demonstrates:

Chapter 6.— That the Son is Very God, of the Same Substance with the Father. Not Only the Father, But the Trinity, is Affirmed to Be Immortal. All Things are Not from the Father Alone, But Also from the Son. That the Holy Spirit is Very God, Equal with the Father and the Son.

9. They who have said that our Lord Jesus Christ is not God, or not very God, or not with the Father the One and only God, or not truly immortal because changeable, are proved wrong by the most plain and unanimous voice of divine testimonies; as, for instance, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." For it is plain that we are to take the Word of God to be the only Son of God, of whom it is afterwards said, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," on account of that birth of His incarnation, which was wrought in time of the Virgin. But herein is declared, not only that He is God, but also that He is of the same substance with the Father; because, after saying, "And the Word was God," it is said also, "The same was in the beginning with God: all things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made." Not simply "all things;" but only all things that were made, that is; the whole creature. From which it appears clearly, that He Himself was not made, by whom all things were made. And if He was not made, then He is not a creature; but if He is not a creature, then He is of the samesubstance with the Father. For all substance that is not God is creature; and all that is not creature is God. And if the Son is not of the same substance with the Father, then He is a substance that was made: and if He is a substance that was made, then all things were not made by Him; but "all things were made by Him," therefore He is of one and the same substance with the Father. And so He is not only God, but also very God. And the same John most expressly affirms this in his epistle: "For we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know the true God, and that we may be in His true Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."

10. Hence also it follows by consequence, that the Apostle Paul did not say, "Who alone has immortality," of the Father merely; but of the One and only God, which is the Trinity itself. For that which is itself eternal life is not mortal according to any changeableness; and hence the Son of God, because "He is Eternal Life," is also Himself understood with the Father, where it is said, "Who only has immortality." For we, too, are made partakers of this eternal life, and become, in our own measure, immortal. But the eternal life itself, of which we are made partakers, is one thing; we ourselves, who, by partaking of it, shall live eternally, are another. For if He had said, "Whom in His own time the Father will show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only has immortality;" not even so would it be necessarily understood that the Son is excluded. For neither has the Son separated the Father from Himself, because He Himself, speaking elsewhere with the voice of wisdom (for He Himself is the Wisdom ofGod), says, "I alone compassed the circuit of heaven." And therefore so much the more is it not necessary that the words, "Who has immortality," should be understood of the Father alone, omitting the Son; when they are said thus: "That you keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: whom in His own time He will show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen." In which words neither is the Father specially named, nor the Son, nor the Holy Spirit; but the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; that is, the One and only and true God, the Trinity itself.

11. But perhaps what follows may interfere with this meaning; because it is said, "Whom no man has seen, nor can see:" although this may also be taken as belonging to Christ according to His divinity, which the Jews did not see, who yet saw and crucified Him in the flesh; whereas His divinity can in no way be seen by human sight, but is seen with that sight with which they who see are no longer men, but beyond men. Rightly, therefore, is God Himself, the Trinity, understood to be the "blessed and only Potentate," who "shows the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in His own time." For the words, "Who only has immortality," are said in the same way as it is said, "Who only does wondrous things." And I should be glad to know of whom they take these words to be said. If only of the Father, how then is that true which the Son Himself says, "For what things soever the Father does, these also does the Son likewise?" Is there any, among wonderful works, more wonderful than to raise up and quicken the dead? Yet the same Son says, "As the Father raises up the dead, and quickens them, even so the Son quickens whom He will." How, then, does the Father alone "do wondrous things," when these words allow us to understand neither the Father only, nor the Son only, but assuredly the one only true God, that is, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

12. Also, when the same apostle says, "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him," who can doubt that he speaks of all things which are created; as does John, when he says, "All things were made by Him"? I ask, therefore, of whom he speaks in another place: "For of Him, and through Him, and in Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen." For if of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, so as to assign each clause severally to each person: of Him, that is to say, of the Father; through Him, that is to say, through the Son; in Him, that is to say, in the Holy Spirit—it is manifest that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit is one God, inasmuch as the words continue in the singular number, "To whom be glory for ever." For at the beginning of the passage he does not say, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge" of the Father, or of the Son, or of the Holy Spirit, but "of the wisdom and knowledge of God!" "How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counsellor? Or who has first given to Him and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and in Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen." But if they will have this to be understood only of the Father, then in what way are all things by the Father, as is said here; and all things by the Son, as where it is said to the Corinthians, "And one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things," and as in the Gospel of John, "All things were made by Him?" For if some things were made by the Father, and some by the Son, then all things were not made by the Father, nor all things by the Son; but if all things were made by the Father, and all things by the Son, then the same things were made by the Father and by the Son. The Son, therefore, is equal with the Father, and the working of the Father and the Son is indivisible. Because if the Father made even the Son, whom certainly the Son Himself did not make, then all things were not made by the Son; but all things were made by the Son: therefore He Himself was not made, that with the Father He might make all things that were made. And theapostle has not refrained from using the very word itself, but has said most expressly, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God;" using here the name of God specially of the Father; as elsewhere, "But the head of Christ is God."
http://newadvent.org/fathers/130101.htm

Originally posted by jaywill
That is why I thought to include some of the sayings of the Christian brothers of the past.

The collective wisdom of the Body of Christ sooner or latter causes us to nod in agreement.

You have not been wrong. And I try to help people to understand. And as you see it can easily backfires with the scoffer.

🙂