What Others Said about the Trinity

Originally posted by Badwater
BB makes it sounds like he knows something because he does.

Just because you fail to understand that does not make it so. BB is a Greek with some exceptional English skills and knowledge of many faiths. AND...he knows enough Sioux and Cherokee to talk with my Apache significant other. In tongue. A Greek, mind you. Figure that one out.

What you're dete ...[text shortened]... the sharpest minds here and I learn a great deal from him. If you but listened, you would also.

Neither you or anyone else posting in this forum can tell me anything I can't understand. I'm well aware of black beetle's literary and linguistic skills. They are impressive. But they won't save him, or you, or anyone else.


Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
But if any man love God, the same is known of him.


You can laud bb all you want, but what is more important, knowledge of things or of God?

Originally posted by josephw
...


You can laud bb all you want, but what is more important, knowledge of things or of God?

Neither would be more important. If they are interconnected, as would be the case in your God-view, is it not the same knowledge?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Certainly you are entitled to your beliefs. The thing is, are you able to see that there is sufficient evidence in the Bible to cause someone to believe that God and Christ are not one and the same being ? I guess you cannot.

That is because you have eyes and see not.

Originally posted by jaywill
Ambrose (A.D. 339 - 397 )

[b]" The silence of Scripture about the Spirit in certain places where the Father and the Son are named is not to be pressed any more than its silence about the Father and the Son where the Spirit alone is named. The three Persons of the Trinity have one operation and when one Person is mentioned, the other two are included by i ...[text shortened]... hree, the Divine Name is One. The Holy Trinity has in fact one operation and one will." [/b]

If this is in responce to my last post, it doesn't answer a thing other then showing that Ambrose doesn't have any explination either. Try again...

Originally posted by josephw
You're an atheist! You say there is no God. So therefore, if there was a God, you wouldn't know it. For you to say that John is in error about the nature of Jesus, when he was an eye wittness, is pure folly.

I love to debate too. I suggest you stick with the debate about the existence of God untill that is resolved.

I am an atheist, but let's sort it out: I am talking out of love. I have nothing to prove and I respect everybody's personal aletheia -and I respect your personal aletheia.

The Christian God is Love, otherwise is cancelled. And the first metaphysic theory of love in Europe is related with Plato -Symposium!-, and this is the reason why personages like St. Augustine and Origen were based at this specific line of thought in order to bring up an understandable doctrine regarding the Christian religion and the Christian concept of Agape. The understanding of the Platonic and the Christian doctrines is essential -and, mind you, the early Greek fathers of the Church tried hard to save according to their convenience (in order to promote solid interpretation of their religion, that is) the most possible Platonic elements causing by the way the rage of the Platonist philosophers. And this is the reason why shortly before his death Ignatius wrote to Romans in paragraph 7 “… my eros is not synonym of love… My eros was crucified, and there is not inside me a burning desire and passion for the ephemeral” (my translation). However Origen defined “eros” as identical to the Christian Agape regarding John A 4:8 because he used the OT verses “taftin efilisa kai eksezitisa ek neotitos mou kai ezitisa nimfin agagesthai emafto kai erastis egenomin tou kallous aftis” -and he fails because Plato stated clearly that Eros is not a God, whilst this is also a false approach of the Christian religion. Origen was stranded.

Over here I do not try to prove that Platonism and Christianity are totally different or to prove that the former is superior to the other or the opposite. You will find no philosopher well versed on Platonism eager to declare that Christianity (Religion/ Life) is identical to Platonism (Philosophy/ Life). Plato is not justified by means of Christianity and the vice versa, because both of them need no justification. One cannot prove that Plato is a predecessor of the early fathers of the Christian Church, and one cannot prove that the Christian doctrine itself is vulgar Platonism as it is supposed that it was stated by Nietzsche: the German (sorry Freaky darling) was talking about the futile attempts of St. Augustine amongst else to use the Platonic logic in order to bring up an understanding of the Christian doctrines -and these attempts, yes, in my opinion they are indeed vulgar Platonism.

The Christian thesis is clear: Agape is necessary for the well being of the Human because it is the victory against the death (of the soul, of course: Plato conceived this victory as “Agathe memory” and “memory of the products of the spirit”, whilst the Christian religion defines this victory as salvation of the sinful nature of the Human) and as the agent for one's perfection because it is the link between God and Human -and this is the reason why it is stated that “the Human becomes theofilis”. Agape is visible at the parables (Samaritan etc) and at the teachings of Paul, and there were attempts for Agape’s philosophic back up by St. Augustine, Dante, Fenelon, St. Francois de Sales and Pascal amongst else. But, in my opinion, the most superb point is offered by A’ Cor. 13 1-8.

So Agape is alien to our senses whilst this is not the case in Platonism. Agape recognizes not sexes because is psychical, and the soul has no sex although we are aware of Asma Asmaton -and once more St. Augustine brings up vulgar Platonism. However Plato’s Eros is based on the metaphysic belief that the existence of the Ideas is aletheia, and that at this level the On is perfect. We can get to know these Ideas by means of our senses, claims Plato, and then these senses of ours are entering Einai and they participate in the being thanks to the existence of the Ideas. Plato offers that this understanding is a product of the non-conceptual power of the soul and at the same time a product of Noisis (mind). Of course this exact doctrine regarding understanding has Eastern roots (in the Eastern philosophy we are talking about conceptual and non-conceptual awareness, ie for meditation at a deep level of specific Yoga practices). This is the basis, claims Plato, of the rising of Eros. And at this very point Aristotle gets deep into Platonism and states that the gravitational force of Eros is so intensive that it becomes the Rule/ Cause of the Kinisis of Kosmos (Metaphysics 1072b3).

But according to the Christian doctrine Agape is created not from the passive existence of God but of his energetic existence. Because the main point is not the Agape of the Human to God but the opposite (John A 4, 10). God’s Agape for the Human is so extremely strong that God entered the Greatest of the Unconceivable Humiliations -he sacrificed his Son for the salvation of the Human (John A 4, 9). God’s Agape for the Human has no cause: if Satan was asking God why he feels so much Agape for the Human, God would not answer -there is no Because! Even the Hell is a creation of God out of his Agape for the Human, as it is claimed by Dante.

I could keep up ad infinitum with many many details regarding your respectful religion. However the Christian religion is just a religion -one does not use his mind but his belief: s/he believes or s/he believes not. I respect every religion, yours included, and I will fight to ensure that everybody will be feel to enjoy her/ his religion to the hilt. But stop trying to prove that your religion is rational because actually it is not. And the doctrine of the Christian Trinity is as irrational as it gets. And methinks it is a shame for a Christian to try to offer an out of the blue "explanation" the way St. Augustine and the other fathers did. You have nothing to prove! You belittle your religion whenever you attempt to explain it by reason. You cannot use philosophy in order to decipher and to back up a religion -you can solely use theology. Any attempt to prove that a religion, the Christian one included, is philosophically accepted is futile, because it fails to pass the philosophic test.

Methinks the Christian is not Christian simply because s/he firmly believes that the God is existent. S/He is Christian because s/he firmly believes that God is Panagathos although s/he sees and s/he tastes all this suffering in the world of ours. And s/he is Christian due to the fact that s/he feels her/ his God’s endless, unimaginable and unconceivable Agape. So the Christian has to honor God by expressing Agape for every human being, and by understanding that first one gets rid of the log in her/ his own eye and then s/he will see well enough to deal with the speck in her/ his friend's eye. The Christian has to empty her/ himself from his negativity just as Jesus emptied his body from life on the cross. The Christian is Christian because s/he avoids her/ his own negativities and impurities.

So it is not this miserable atheist blavk beetle the one who belittles the Christian religion although I deny the existence of your God because my way is the evaluation of the mind. I know that your God is quite existent for you because your way is your Pistis. So your religion is belittled by the attitude of the fundamentalist fanatics that they are trying constantly to convert everybody, to “prove” by any means that their religion is not a religion and that their religion is the “absolute truth” and all that jazz.

May All Beings Be Happy
😵

Originally posted by galveston75
If this is in responce to my last post, it doesn't answer a thing other then showing that Ambrose doesn't have any explination either. Try again...

I don't think I posted Ambrose's quotation in response to your question.

But what is wrong with not having, sometimes, an explanation?

Is "Thou shalt always have an explanation" the 11th Commandment down at the Watchtower Publishing House?

Yes, that's right. sometimes I don't have an explanation.

I do not have an explanation for how the Word can be with God and be God. But your explanation that the God the Word WAS is a different God from the God Whom the Word was with, I don't think I will adopt. Nor that the Word was the first angelic being the other God created.

Neither do I have an explanation for how the Bible can say both "the Lord is the Spirit" and speak latter of "the Spirit of the Lord".

But it spoke it and I choose to say "Amen!" and believe the word.

I have given you many explanations which you have not accepted. Sometimes I do not have an explanation.

We still can receive Christ as the peace of God that surpasses every man's understanding (Phil.4:7)

"And the peace of God, which surpasses every man's understanding, will guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus."

Compare:

"And let the peace of Christ arbitrate in your hearts, to which also you were called in One Body; and be thankful." (Col. 3:15)

The man who receives Jesus Christ into his heart will have the peace of God that surpasses every man's human understanding. Such living peace will guide his heart and direct it continually to the living Person of Christ.

Originally posted by black beetle
I am an atheist, but let's sort it out: I am talking out of love. I have nothing to prove and I respect everybody's personal aletheia -and I respect your personal aletheia.

The Christian God is Love, otherwise is cancelled. And the first metaphysic theory of love in Europe is related with Plato -Symposium!-, and this is the reason why personages like t their religion is the “absolute truth” and all that jazz.

May All Beings Be Happy
😵

However the Christian religion is just a religion -one does not use his mind but his belief

this is an erroneous statement beetle, or at very last is not strictly true, for we are constantly fighting a battle within our minds, a battle against self as opposed to selflessness, a battle against the effects of inherited imperfection and what we perceive as the perfect example of Christ. We shall of course never attain it, but it is worth striving for, for in the process a metamorphosis of the personality should occur, and the traits that we formerly had as spiritual children, are put off, just as the traits of a literal baby are discarded with and we try to press ahead for maturity. Furthermore there are many instances in life which we must make conscience based decisions upon, serious and weighty issues, which cannot be taken lightly, therefore reflection and meditation are a prerequisite to forming a personal evaluation. it is inconceivable that this should be done anywhere else, but in the mind.

however you make an excellent case against the trinity, which has really brought to the fore, the fragility with which many nominal christians have placed their trust, an inexplicable doctrine, without reason, without substance. what are we who are also christians, yet labelled by the nominal Christians as Anti Christs because we do not accept their inexplicable doctrine to think of this? Is it not so absurd as to beg belief?

i am glad you are on our side of this battle beetle for you would make a formidable foe if you were on the 'dark side', of the force!

Originally posted by jaywill
I don't think I posted Ambrose's quotation in response to your question.

But what is wrong with not having, sometimes, an explanation?

Is "Thou shalt always have an explanation" the 11th Commandment down at the Watchtower Publishing House?

Yes, that's right. sometimes I don't have an explanation.

I do not have an explanation for how the Wo ...[text shortened]... ll guide his heart and direct it continually to the living Person of Christ.

Not understanding some point or issue in the Bible is completely ok. None of us know all the answers. But the serious mistake is putting your reliance on what these men say with regards to this paganistic belief and their excuses and made up reasonings as to why YOU should accept what they say is truth instead of the Bible. The truth is in all the scriptures of the Bible...Not what MEN come up with which this trinity doctrine wreaks with human theories and deceptions. And that's exactly what has happened to ones who believe this trinity...you've been decieved and have been drawn away from the clear truths in the Bible.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
However the Christian religion is just a religion -one does not use his mind but his belief

this is an erroneous statement beetle, or at very last is not strictly true, for we are constantly fighting a battle within our minds, a battle against self as opposed to selflessness, a battle against the effects of inherited imperfection and what we perc ...[text shortened]... rsonal evaluation. it is inconceivable that this should be done anywhere else, but in the mind.

Execellent...

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
However the Christian religion is just a religion -one does not use his mind but his belief

this is an erroneous statement beetle, or at very last is not strictly true, for we are constantly fighting a battle within our minds, a battle against self as opposed to selflessness, a battle against the effects of inherited imperfection and what we perc ...[text shortened]... rsonal evaluation. it is inconceivable that this should be done anywhere else, but in the mind.

One just tries to have perfectly balanced the physical world, her/ his inner world and the world of the Ideas. My sword is the evaluation of the mind and your sword is Pistis.

It's only Us
😵

Originally posted by black beetle
One just tries to have perfectly balanced the physical world, her/ his inner world and the world of the Ideas. My sword is the evaluation of the mind and your sword is Pistis.

It's only Us
😵

Lol, your forgetting my friend about the holy blade of grass, 🙂

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
However the Christian religion is just a religion -one does not use his mind but his belief

this is an erroneous statement beetle, or at very last is not strictly true, for we are constantly fighting a battle within our minds, a battle against self as opposed to selflessness, a battle against the effects of inherited imperfection and what we perc ...[text shortened]... attle beetle for you would make a formidable foe if you were on the 'dark side', of the force!

And, regarding the Christian Tritiny, methinks the Trinitarian Christians are not obliged at all to justify this belief of theirs. For me it is an irrational doctrine and I can recognize the seeds of its origin, sure thing, but for the Trinitarian Christians aletheia it remains because it is the cornerstone of their Pistis. One cannot apply Pistis based on one's mind although some develop Pistis because their evaluation of the mind forces them to trancsend their mind in favor of their Pistis
😵