Originally posted by robbie carrobieI've heard a different take on that. And besides, you weren't there. The truth will eventually be known nonetheless.
it should be remembered Glavo, that the monster Calvin had a man, burned alive, because he dared to print something contrary to the teaching of the trinity, a one Michael Servetus! who published De Trinitatis Erroribus (On the Errors of the Trinity). One can hardly imagine Christ doing the same. To cite Calvin as an example of either a Christian or a scholar is incredulous in itself.
And don't forget. David was a murderer, and yet God said he was a man after His own heart.
Of course the God haters will use that to justify calling God a murderer. But what else can you expect from the unregenerated?
Originally posted by black beetleYou make a sound like you know something, but like all good atheists you insult and belittle in hope of justifying your unsubstantiated position of unbelief.
Origen’s broken down Platonism -mixed with a bit of Stoicism- is a strange theology that cannot stand criticism, and at the same time does intend to avoid criticism claiming that anyway the true nature of God will remain for ever and ever incomprehensible to us. What a surprise, mambo-jumbo once more.
Origen, unable even to bring up a description of th ...[text shortened]... eal Soul based on the concept of Trikaya, and the concept of Trikaya is not a mystery at all
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Originally posted by Rajk999God and Christ are therefore two separate and distinct entities.
Paul of Tarsus, who starts off most of his writings to the churches as follows :
[b]Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
God and Christ are therefore two separate and distinct entities.[/b]
Yes. And yet are one and the same.
You just have to get your mind around it.
Originally posted by josephwI belittle nothing, and as a good Greek atheist I love debating.
You make a sound like you know something, but like all good atheists you insult and belittle in hope of justifying your unsubstantiated position of unbelief.
So I am aware of the fact that John states that from the beginning the eternal God and source of life is present in Christ, who came among men and women for that purpose. In his opinion God enters into all the trials of human life by means of Jesus, who came to live among his people as one of them, revealing God and offering new life because he was the source of life from the beginning, and therefore John points out that Son is God although the Son is not the Father. This is the basis of the Trinitarian belief -a standard "take it or leave it" case.
And I am aware of the fact that then John claims that Logos is related to God, to creation, to the world and to the response of the world, to his own people, to his children, to his disciples and his witnesses -and to Jesus. And, since he already offered the relationship of the Logos to the Father as a given fact (to him, that is), John hopes that whoever reads his Gospel will believe and will share the grace given by the One/ Son who has come from the Father. Take it or leave it, again.
One is free to believe whatever s/he wants -but to claim that this doctrine makes sense and that St. Augustine’s exegesis is rational is another story
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Originally posted by josephwBB makes it sounds like he knows something because he does.
You make a sound like you know something, but like all good atheists you insult and belittle in hope of justifying your unsubstantiated position of unbelief.
Just because you fail to understand that does not make it so. BB is a Greek with some exceptional English skills and knowledge of many faiths. AND...he knows enough Sioux and Cherokee to talk with my Apache significant other. In tongue. A Greek, mind you. Figure that one out.
What you're detecting as an insult is merely your embarrassment of not understanding the conversation, same as if you were in a room and BB and my S/O were talking in a native tongue and you had no idea what was being said.
BB is one of the sharpest minds here and I learn a great deal from him. If you but listened, you would also.
Originally posted by jaywillSo you say that Jesus is God and was a man but still God...Right? So if he is God why doesn't he know all as God should as with the scripture Rajj is asking you to explain, and not jump away from as you always do when you know it conflicts with the trinity?
[b]===================================
So you cannot explain the FACT that God has knowledge that Christ does not have? Therefore your conclusion that God and Christ are the same is incorrect.
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It is obvious that as a man Jesus at times did not have the knowledge of something other men or that His Fath ...[text shortened]... rue even though human language and human reasoning have difficulty reconciling the paradoxes.[/b]
Originally posted by galveston75In Isaiah 9:6 a little child who was nine months in the womb of a woman, connected to her with an umbilical cord, who came out of her vigina, and probably fed on her breasts, grew, and lived a human life like you and I, was called "Mighty God".
So you say that Jesus is God and was a man but still God...Right? So if he is God why doesn't he know all as God should as with the scripture Rajj is asking you to explain, and not jump away from as you always do when you know it conflicts with the trinity?
Jehovah is the Mighty God (Jeremiah 32:18) - "O great and mighty God whose name is Jehovah"
In the same prophecy a Son was given, a son at the end of generations of men going back to the first man Adam - dusty men, imperfect men, even sinful men, men who grew old and died - and yet this Son is called "Eternal Father".
And you ask me, how could He be God and not know, or be surprised, or marvel, or be tired, or feel pain, or suffer, or cry out, or say "My God, My God, why have you Forsaken Me ?"[/b]
You challenge me. Where is the rational? How?
I would reply "Is anything too hard for Jehovah?"
This is the incarnation. This is the Word Who was with God and Who was God became flesh "and tabernacled among us."
If you cannot bear the shame of believing what the word of God says then save face and don't believe it.
By God's sheer mercy, I am willing to let the foolishness of God be wiser than the wisdom of men.
You go ahead and follow Russell and Arius. If you think it will make it easier on your cerebrum to make Jesus the first created angel, you go ahead and believe that.
This thread I had intended to reserve for samples of the writing of others, in many cases more educated and learned than any of us at this forum.
Hermann Witsius (A.D. 1636 - 1708)
"From this incomprehensible mystery, which surpasses all sense and reason, we learn that we must renounce our own wisdom in divine matters, and reduce every thought into captivity to the obedience of faith. No one is prepared to form right views of this mystery who has not risen above the low sphere of the senses and human reasoning and soared to the sublimer region of faith, where, relying on God's own testimony respecting Himself, he believes what he is able neither to see with his eyes, nor comprehend with his mind - stopping at that precise point, beyond which divine revelation doth not conduct him."
Originally posted by josephwwait a minute are you denying that Calvin had a man murdered for printing a document exposing the errors of the trinity? i wasn't present on the fourth of July, 1776, American independence day, but i take it upon trust that it happened, unless of course you are willing to deny this also.
I've heard a different take on that. And besides, you weren't there. The truth will eventually be known nonetheless.
And don't forget. David was a murderer, and yet God said he was a man after His own heart.
Of course the God haters will use that to justify calling God a murderer. But what else can you expect from the unregenerated?
as for the case of King David, he murdered a man and should have been rightly condemned to death. David immediately acknowledged his mistake and suffered for it, and because of his repentant attitude, his life was spared.
Calvin on the other hand has made, to my knowledge, no such admittance. He had a man murdered in the most horrific manner possible and stands condemned by his action as the monster that he is!
Originally posted by galveston75I think JosephW said how you go about believing that God and Christ are one and the same. He said you have to get your mind around it. That means you believe in it regardless of what the Bible says. So you brainwash or indoctrinate yourself by putting aside all reason and commonsense.
So you say that Jesus is God and was a man but still God...Right? So if he is God why doesn't he know all as God should as with the scripture Rajj is asking you to explain, and not jump away from as you always do when you know it conflicts with the trinity?
Bill Freeman (writing in 1976) -
In the Scriptures, God has reavealed Himself as Triune. This revelation is a fact and also a mystery for our experience. On one hand, the fact that God is Triune (Three in One) is a mystery to our understanding; but on the other hand, His Triune Being is available for us to experience. The facts recorded in Scripture are sufficient for us to be put into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, that is, to experience the Triune God in baptism (Matt. 28:19) and daily life (3 Cor. 13:14); however, the facts of Scriptures are not sufficient for us to fully understand and explain the inner nature and mystery of the Triune God.
The fact of this mystery is expressed by Isaiah when he says, "For UNTO US a child is born, UNTO US a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace" (Isa. 9:6). That the revelation is given for our experience is indicated by the twice repeated phrase, "UNTO US", but the revelation of a child being called the Mighty God and a son being the Everlasting Father is beyond the reaches of our understanding. Therefore, Isaiah calls Him "Wonderful."
The Hebrew word PEHLEH, is translated "Wonderful" in Isaiah 9:6, means something unusual, unheard of, extraordinary, hard to understand, beyond one's powers, too difficult, and incomprehensible. The same root word is used in three other places that illustrate its meaning: "Is anything TOO HARD for the Lord?" (Gen. 18:14); "Such knowledge is TOO WONDERFUL for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it" (Psa. 139:6); "But the angel of the Lord said to him, Why do you ask My name, seeing it is Wonderful?" (Judg. 13:18). Hallelujah! Wonderful means incomprehensible! This marvelous Name reveals the mystery of the Triune God. He is beyond human comprehension. Franze Delitzsch in his Old Testament commentaries on Isaiah 9:6 said:
"He is first called Wonderful, which means He is incomprehensible to mortal men: He is a phenomenon lying altogether beyond human conception or natural occurrence. Not only is this or that wonderful in Him, but He Himself is throughout a wonder."
Originally posted by Conrau KThanks for the info. But I think you make the issue unnecessarily complex.
Yes. Very clearly in favour of the Trinity, as St. Augustine demonstrates:
Chapter 6.— That the Son is Very God, of the Same Substance with the Father. Not Only the Father, But the Trinity, is Affirmed to Be Immortal. All Things are Not from the Father Alone, But Also from the Son. That the Holy Spirit is Very God, Equal with the Father and the Son.
9 wadvent.org/fathers/130101.htm
The questions I have asked others here is as follows:
- Is the doctrine of the Trinity a cardinal doctrine?
- Is there sufficient evidence to suggest that the doctrine of the Trinity is not conclusive .. say as conclusive as the commandment to "Love thy neighbour as thyself"
- Is it necessary for a Christian to believe that God and Christ are one and the same entity?
- Would my salvation be in jeopardy if I believe that God is the Father and Christ is His Son, and that they are not equals.
- Is the Trinity-believing Christian justified in claiming that non-Trinity-believing Christians are not Christians or viceversa?
Originally posted by Rajk999mmm, i wonder if asked, how many nominal christians would say, 'i am a Christian because of the trinity'.
Thanks for the info. But I think you make the issue unnecessarily complex.
The questions I have asked others here is as follows:
- Is the doctrine of the Trinity a cardinal doctrine?
- Is there sufficient evidence to suggest that the doctrine of the Trinity is not conclusive .. say as conclusive as the commandment to "Love thy neighbour as thyself"
...[text shortened]... n justified in claiming that non-Trinity-believing Christians are not Christians or viceversa?
And where is the Holy Spirit in all of this? First he gets no name and he hardly gets talked about very much. 95% of the forum is about Jesus the son and Jehovah the Father. So why does the Holy Spirit seem to be like a step child and put on the back burner.
Where was he during the creation of th earth and heavens? Was he not a "worker" like Jesus? Did he not have a share in that?
Why did Jesus not pray to him especially when he was about to be put to death? It seems like praying to the other two parts of 3 would have been better then just praying to the 1 part of God?
And as far as I know the holy spirit is never called God or A God at all. Even Satan is called a God in the Bible. So why is the Holy Spirit not given that title?
Why is the Holy Spirit not included in any conversations between Jesus and Jehovah in anything they discussed in prayers or together in Heaven?
Why is just Jesus mentioned as the one sitting beside the Fathers right hand?
Why do we not pray to Jehovah thru the Holy Spirit as we do thru Jesus?
Do you get the point? Do I need to continue with many more examples of why the Holy Spirit is not God or a God and is not a part of a trinity?
Originally posted by black beetleYou're an atheist! You say there is no God. So therefore, if there was a God, you wouldn't know it. For you to say that John is in error about the nature of Jesus, when he was an eye wittness, is pure folly.
I belittle nothing, and as a good Greek atheist I love debating.
So I am aware of the fact that John states that from the beginning the eternal God and source of life is present in Christ, who came among men and women for that purpose. In his opinion God enters into all the trials of human life by means of Jesus, who came to live among his people as ...[text shortened]... t this doctrine makes sense and that St. Augustine’s exegesis is rational is another story
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I love to debate too. I suggest you stick with the debate about the existence of God untill that is resolved.