Originally posted by epiphinehasYou don't seriously believe that do you? They don't even agree with each other without even having to bring in anything else. As for 'biblical scholarship' and 'archeological findings' I think you will find them seriously lacking in any actual evidence.
The reliability of the Synoptic documents are unsurpassed by all standards compared to all other ancient writings and cannot be disparaged as easily as you would like without betraying a personal bias or a lack of scholarship, or both.
I have tried to link the preparation of God's saved people on earth to Christ's second coming. It is tempting for some to feel that there is no connection. The natural mind may feel "Well Jesus will come whenever. It has nothing to do with Christians."
Well, in light of the fuller writing of the New Testament that is probably not a safe assumption. I have spoken of the harvest of the earth prompting Christ to reap His crop of believers in Revelation 14. Now lets look at the same idea from another angle in Revelation chapter 19.
"Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready. And it was given to her hat she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean, for the fine linen is the righteousnesses [SIC] of the saints." (Rev. 19:7-9)
Stay with me please:
1.) This sign reveals Christ coming for a Wife for a marriage. The Wife is His saved people, the church.
2.) The time of His marriage has come. He will not marry a adolescent girl. He will not marry a teenager. He comes to wed a mature adult women. So just as the Harvest of the earth emphasizes RIPENESS, the marriage of the Lamb emphasizes maturity also.
3.) Notice please these words - "the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."
His wife has MADE HERSELF READY.
Did you notice that. It is not that the wife has passively twiddled her thumbs assuming that her condition has nothing to do with the marriage. SHE HAS MADE HERSELF .... READY. She has undergone self preparation.
With the Harvest of the earth in chapter 14 we see a mature crop ready to be reaped. With the prepared Wife in chapter 19 we see a corporate entity as a romantic other who has MADE HERSELF READY to be married to Jesus.
4.) Now what are the factors of her self preparation ? How does she make herself ready? Notice carefully the words. And there is no typo here:
"And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; FOR THE FINE LINEN IS THE RIGHTEOUSNESSES OF THE SAINTS." (v.8)
That is not a typo. The word is RIGHTEOUSNESSES (plural). Some English version say "righteous deeds" I believe. The Recovery Version translates to righteousnessES. That is many acts or deeds of righteousness.
What is the significance? These righteousnesses [plural] speaks of LIVING. It speaks of BEHAVIOR. It speaks of EXPRESSION in daily life. The RIGHTEOUSNESS ---ES of the saints is not the objective righteousness of Justification by Faith. Though the Christians are saved eternally through being placed in a righteous standing before God, their preparation for marriage to Him is the righteous LIVING expressed in practical behavior.
She makes herself ready, therefore, by living out the indwelling Christ so that Christ is manifested in her acts, deeds, behaviors, reactions, practical daily living.
"for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints"
The garment for her marriage, for her wedding ceremony is her subjective behavior with which she makes herself ready.
We will look deeper into this symbolism. Consider this much. There is a self preparation process by which God's people make themselves ready. It is deeper than the objective righteousness standing from justification by faith. It is the clean and bright deeds, acts, behaviors from living Christ which prepares the Wife to meet Christ.
This preparing of the Wife need not involve all Christians. But it need involve some number of Christians, probably rather large, who make themselves ready for the sake of the entire Body of believers.
Think on it awhile.
Originally posted by twhiteheadI do seriously believe that, yes. If you'd like to discuss the reliability of scripture, or any archeological evidence, I would be glad to.
You don't seriously believe that do you? They don't even agree with each other without even having to bring in anything else. As for 'biblical scholarship' and 'archeological findings' I think you will find them seriously lacking in any actual evidence.
Originally posted by jaywillNice.
I have tried to link the preparation of God's saved people on earth to Christ's second coming. It is tempting for some to feel that there is no connection. The natural mind may feel "Well Jesus will come whenever. It has nothing to do with Christians."
Well, in light of the fuller writing of the New Testament that is probably not a safe assumption. I h ...[text shortened]... es ready for the sake of the entire Body of believers.
Think on it awhile.
Originally posted by epiphinehasStill, it was hearsay, nothing more. And written down 50 years after. Memory has its flaws. Noone can remember word for word what anyone said 50 years earlier. No, it's not the words from Jesus mouth.
Wrong. The book was credited to Matthew by the early church fathers, and was written shortly before the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 - within a generation of those who witnessed the ministry of Christ firsthand. There is no record of any disciple or follower of Jesus contesting the accuracy of Matthew (or Luke, or Mark, for that matter), and bib rophecies concerning the return of Christ, so I doubt your claim that he was the "new Jesus."
Are you sure that the prophecies was correct? Are you sure that Muhammed wasn't the new Jesus? Or is your opinion just the belief of your religion? Note that I don't claim anything, it's just an open question.
My question is "Can we really recognize Jesus if he comes? Perhaps he is really here?"
Originally posted by jaywill….1.) He comes from some place to the earth. Don't ask me where that place is. I don't know that much. But He must travel from there to here physically.
Christ's coming is from two directions.
1.) He comes from some place to the earth. Don't ask me where that place is. I don't know that much. But He must travel from there to here physically.
In this day of advance cosmology and worm holes and all kinds of strange new theories, this should be less of a problem to the modern mind than say 400 years ...[text shortened]... esus is to grow in our personality.
He is coming from above and He is coming from within.
In this day of advance cosmology and worm holes and all kinds of strange new theories,
..…
Mmmm I don’t think that there is scientific theory that says that Jesus could ‘came back’ through a worm hole. Science and religion are worlds apart -you cannot really mix one with the other. If some cosmologist started talking about Jesus Christ going through worm holes or 'another dimension', he would be put in a straightjacket for being a nut.
I am sorry I asked -I was hoping that you could give a full description of the physical process ( assuming it IS supposed to be ‘physical’! ) which could be put under rational scientific scrutiny.
Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton===========================================
[b]….1.) He comes from some place to the earth. Don't ask me where that place is. I don't know that much. But He must travel from there to here physically.
In this day of advance cosmology and worm holes and all kinds of strange new theories,
..…
Mmmm I don’t think that there is scientific theory that says that Jesus could ‘came back’ t ng it IS supposed to be ‘physical’! ) which could be put under rational scientific scrutiny.[/b]
Mmmm I don’t think that there is scientific theory that says that Jesus could ‘came back’ through a worm hole.
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You are quite correct. Now that is not what I mean. All I mean is that we have to admit that the universe is queerer than we imagined. Perhaps it is queerer than we CAN imagine.
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Science and religion are worlds apart -you cannot really mix one with the other. If some cosmologist started talking about Jesus Christ going through worm holes or 'another dimension', he would be put in a straightjacket for being a nut.
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My point was not that science can explain how Jesus will come. My point is that what we do not know is great. Therefore, we should make allowances for the Creator of the universe's ability to bring Christ to the earth is ways queerer than we expected.
The Soviet Premiere Nikitta Kruschev told his astronaut, when he went into space, to look around and tell him if he saw heaven and God. He imagined that he was being pretty clever.
"While you are up there in orbit, please look around and tell us if you see Heaven or God. If not then we know that these things do not exist. Chuckle chuckle."
My point is that since Kruschev's day we have come to know that the universe is queerer than that and Christ could come in some surprising way that we cannot even imagine.
Take it or leave it. At any rate He came the first time according to the promise of the prophecies. Many of us believe that He will come again according to the prophecies.
God's resume impresses us, even though we do not know HOW some of these things will occur.
Originally posted by FabianFnasStill, it was hearsay, nothing more. And written down 50 years after. Memory has its flaws. Noone can remember word for word what anyone said 50 years earlier. No, it's not the words from Jesus mouth.
Still, it was hearsay, nothing more. And written down 50 years after. Memory has its flaws. Noone can remember word for word what anyone said 50 years earlier. No, it's not the words from Jesus mouth.
Are you sure that the prophecies was correct? Are you sure that Muhammed wasn't the new Jesus? Or is your opinion just the belief of your religion? Note ...[text shortened]...
My question is "Can we really recognize Jesus if he comes? Perhaps he is really here?"
In the time of Jesus, what was of tantamount importance to preserve for posterity's sake were those events and interactions from which lessons could be drawn, and accuracy was highly valued. If you've ever read the Bible you will have noticed that it is written in a sober and responsible fashion, with accurate incidental details, with obvious care and exactitude. Note, the beginning of Luke's gospel reads, "Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write in orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught."
In the culture of that time, where scrolls of papyrus were rare - education, learning, worship, etc. in religious communities were all conducted by word of mouth. Rabbis became famous for having the entire Old Testament committed to memory. Since Hebrew culture placed such a great emphasis on memorization, it is not unthinkable that the disciples had the capability to commit much more to memory than we find in the entire synoptic account.
Studies have been done of cultures with oral traditions showing that roughly 10-40% of any given retelling of events could vary from one occasion to the next (i.e., what was included, what was left out, what was paraphrased, what was explained, etc.). However, there were always fixed points that were unalterable, and the community had the right to intervene and correct the storyteller if he erred. Christ's ministry ended at roughly 33 A.D. which meant the telling and retelling of the events of his life by eyewitnesses would still have been verifiable by those eyewitnesses by the time the synoptics were actually written. As we'd expect, there are variations between Matthew, Mark and Luke, yet there remains a core of remarkably similar accounts between the three. On most accounts the entries are so similar, in fact, that it has been surmised that the synoptics had been fact-checked against an earlier master copy. At the very least, though, the dissimilarity between the three gospels can be readily attributable to the peculiarities of the oral tradition with its average 10-40% storytelling leeway.
The synoptics were written roughly thirty to fourty years after Jesus' death and resurrection, not fifty years. Indeed, memory is not perfect, but the events in question were related and taught by the disciples themselves, who were the immediate eyewitnesses, learned verbatim during Christ's lifetime, affirmed between the disciples throughout their ministries, and upheld to the accuracy standards of oral tradition until they were ultimately recorded for posterity, after which the synoptic writings were circulated among and continually affirmed by those early Christians who were also eyewitness to the events in question. Again, no record exists of any hostile eyewitnesses taking issue with any of the synoptics, as we might expect were the events mythologized or embellished beyond recognition.
By contrast, the two earliest biographies of Alexander the Great were written more than four hundred years after Alexander's death in 323 B.C., yet historians consider them to be generally trustworthy. Legendary material about Alexander did develop over time, but it was only in the centuries after the two earliest biographies were written. Meaning, the first five hundred years of oral tradition kept Alexander's story pretty much intact. Compare this to the gospels which were written a mere thirty years after Jesus Christ walked the earth and the question of whether or not the synoptics are an accurate record of events becomes a non-issue.
A long story short, the events we read about in the synoptics can indeed be trusted as accurate, and the words attributed to Jesus can be accepted as His own, to an unparalleled degree, historically speaking.
Are you sure that the prophecies was correct? Are you sure that Muhammed wasn't the new Jesus?
Let me ask you. Was this particular prophecy fulfilled by Muhammad?
"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; and He will cause the sheep to stand at His right hand, but the goats at His left. Then the King will say to those at His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world... Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!... Then they will go away into eternal punishment, but those who are in right standing with God into eternal life."
~ Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46
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I daresay not, considering Muhammad, first of all, did not arrive on the clouds of heaven for the whole world to witness, and secondly, Muhammad came and went from the world scene without judging the living and the dead (i.e., no one was sent to eternal punishment or eternal life during his short stint on planet earth). Case closed, IMO.
What I shared in Revelation 19 should be challenged. I am ready for any Berean challenge about the business of the Wife making herself ready.
Do not be afraid to put what I interpreted to the test. I think some of us here are really after the truth.
1.) Why do I say that that Wife there may not be the entire church but a representative number ?
2.) How do I know that the fine linen does not represent the righteousness of justification by faith ?
Those are two questions I certainly would have if encountered this kind of interpretation of Rev. 19 for the first time.
Originally posted by twhiteheadI don't make up anything when referring to the Bible. I may make a typo or be mistaken, but I don't add nor do I detract from the Bible just to satisfy my whims.
Do you have any reasons for that claim or did you just make it up because you want Jesus to return soon? I always find it interesting how many people badly want the signs to be there.
Christians want Jesus to return soon because this world is ruled by Satan and his pawns(world goverments). We want Jesus to return because it will be the to suffering, injustice, disease, pain, sorrow, and last, but definitely not least, death.
The only people who want this world to continue on its present course are people of this world-the non-believers. Jesus stated that in order to follow Him, one must not be of this world. One cannot worship the world and God at the same time. When we die, we leave evrything behind. Why does it profit a man to own the world when as soon as he dies, he will have to leave everything behind. Basically, we want Jesus to return so that we can begin to live the eternal life that He has promised His believers and this present world system, with all its evil, will be a thing of the forgotten past.l
Originally posted by FabianFnasDon't worry, my Swedish friend, God will NOT allow the world to be destroyed by a nuclear war. You do not have to be afraid. The Bible states that man was originally never meant to die, but because if sin, we do die. To avoid everlasting death, one must come to Christ in repentence and receive Him as savior and believe that He offers eternal life. Jesus stated: Revelation 3:20 NKJV
The final day can be sooner than we think. It's enough with one guy, who feels that he is sent by his god, to really put his finger on the red button, starting a global nuclear war, helping god a little.
This is not interesting, this is is scary. There are lunatic religious people who more than willingly want to give god a good help to bring the dooms ...[text shortened]... ut also to nations having nukes alreade, like Israel, Russia, India, Pakistan, China - and USA.
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."
Originally posted by dystoniacThat is a very limited Christian view of the world.
I don't make up anything when referring to the Bible. I may make a typo or be mistaken, but I don't add nor do I detract from the Bible just to satisfy my whims.
Christians want Jesus to return soon because this world is ruled by Satan and his pawns(world goverments). We want Jesus to return because it will be the to suffering, injustice, disease, pai ...[text shortened]... vers and this present world system, with all its evil, will be a thing of the forgotten past.l
Originally posted by kirksey957You are correct, but in the context of what the topic is, what I stated is what one needs to know about salvation and why Christians want Jesus to return. Remember, too, that there is a 'limited' path to entering heaven and narrow is the way, and few people seek it. Wide, and unlimited, is the path to everlasting detsruction and many are those who seek it....
That is a very limited Christian view of the world.