Who do you say that I am?

Originally posted by divegeester
Isaiah 2:1-4 refers to the last days, not to Jesus time on earth. Jesus himself said "i have NOT come to bring peace on earth"
The passage in Zec refers also the "the day of the Lord", which as you very well know is not within Jesus lifetime
Same with EZ Jesus IS the tabernacle - these are visions of his return how can you attempt to say they about J ...[text shortened]... nsulting rally with you so please refrain from that approach if you choose to reply ,thanks.

Of course, the passages cited refer to the "Last Days"; that's when the Messiah will come! Since "Jesus' time" was not the "Last Days", he is not the Messiah. Q.E.D.

That you were unable to see this rather obvious point shows who is really indoctrinated.

Originally posted by jaywill
[/b]No1Maurauder's website says this:

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Hezekiah is called "the ruler of peace" because this name is a sign, which foretells that God would be merciful to him. Punishment for lack of faith in the Almighty will be deferred and peace granted during the last years of his rule. "Then said Hezekiah to Isaiah: 'Good is the word o ed by God also to see Jesus is the incarnation of God in man.

jaywill: This is the Messianic kingdom the encrease of which shall be without end. For it will crush all the worldly forms of government, have them blown away, and Christ's kingdom will fill the whole earth.

Jesus did not establish God's kingdom on Earth, so he can't be the Messiah according to Daniel. Or have all wordly governments been "crushed" and "blown away" and I missed it?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Of course, the passages cited refer to the "Last Days"; that's when the Messiah will come! Since "Jesus' time" was [b]not the "Last Days", he is not the Messiah. Q.E.D.

That you were unable to see this rather obvious point shows who is really indoctrinated.[/b]

Have you never read that Jesus will return as the Messiah and fullfull these prophesies?! Not sure what your point is.

Originally posted by divegeester
Have you never read that Jesus will return as the Messiah and fullfull these prophesies?! Not sure what your point is.

Sure, I've read it written by people after Jesus failed to fulfill the Messianic prophecies. He's getting a "do over" or "Mulligan".

What I haven't read anywhere in the OT is any prophecy that it will take the Messiah two Comings to accomplish his tasks.

Originally posted by divegeester
Have you never read that Jesus will return as the Messiah and fullfull these prophesies?! Not sure what your point is.

Some expressions of early Christianity that were crushed by the orthodoxy (read: Gnostics) did not believe in a literal interpretation of Jesus returning in bodily form after his ascension.

It's safe to say that he ain't coming back in bodily form; not after 2,000 years. The takeover task has only become more difficult as time goes on, and from what I read Jesus wasn't much in to forcing people to see things his way. It would go wholly against character.

I'm still a Christian, even though Jesus isn't returning. It's a non-issue insofar as my faith is concerned.

Originally posted by Badwater
Some expressions of early Christianity that were crushed by the orthodoxy (read: Gnostics) did not believe in a literal interpretation of Jesus returning in bodily form after his ascension.

It's safe to say that he ain't coming back in bodily form; not after 2,000 years. The takeover task has only become more difficult as time goes on, and from what I re ...[text shortened]... ian, even though Jesus isn't returning. It's a non-issue insofar as my faith is concerned.

At the risk of being a thread bore; so who do you say that he is/was then?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Sure, I've read it written by people after Jesus failed to fulfill the Messianic prophecies. He's getting a "do over" or "Mulligan".

What I haven't read anywhere in the OT is any prophecy that it will take the Messiah two Comings to accomplish his tasks.

Doesn't mean that it isn't the case though does it? The prophesies relating to Jesus indicate clearly that he was to suffer and die so there is a case to say that his early demise was predicted - as he indeed did himself predict. His purpose was to come, die for the sins of mankind and return in glory, not every prophesy details every part of his purpose and the fact that it doesn't specifically say he will come twice does not mean it's not the case.

I'll think more about this one though and get back to you if I may.

Originally posted by Badwater
Some expressions of early Christianity that were crushed by the orthodoxy (read: Gnostics) did not believe in a literal interpretation of Jesus returning in bodily form after his ascension.

It's safe to say that he ain't coming back in bodily form; not after 2,000 years. The takeover task has only become more difficult as time goes on, and from what I re ian, even though Jesus isn't returning. It's a non-issue insofar as my faith is concerned.

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Some expressions of early Christianity that were crushed by the orthodoxy (read: Gnostics) did not believe in a literal interpretation of Jesus returning in bodily form after his ascension.

It's safe to say that he ain't coming back in bodily form; not after 2,000 years. The takeover task has only become more difficult as time goes on, and from what I read Jesus wasn't much in to forcing people to see things his way. It would go wholly against character.

I'm still a Christian, even though Jesus isn't returning. It's a non-issue insofar as my faith is concerned.
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Of course Christ has His second coming.

And not only that, but the church has not been sitting around twiddling its thumbs and waiting.

Maybe you have been bored with passivity, so you feel that 2000 years proves no second coming. I don't feel that way in the least. That's only two days in the eyes of God.

When He does come back most people will think that it is too soon rather than too late.

Have you been praying and asking Him to return ? Why not if not ?

Originally posted by jaywill
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Some expressions of early Christianity that were crushed by the orthodoxy (read: Gnostics) did not believe in a literal interpretation of Jesus returning in bodily form after his ascension.

It's safe to say that he ain't coming back in bodily form; not after 2,000 years. The takeover task has only become more difficul er than too late.

Have you been praying and asking Him to return ? Why not if not ?[/b]

Will "praying and asking Him to return" speed up the process? If not, why bother?

Originally posted by no1marauder
jaywill: This is the Messianic kingdom the encrease of which shall be [b]without end. For it will crush all the worldly forms of government, have them blown away, and Christ's kingdom will fill the whole earth.

Jesus did not establish God's kingdom on Earth, so he can't be the Messiah according to Daniel. Or have all wordly governments been "crushed" and "blown away" and I missed it?[/b]

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jaywill: This is the Messianic kingdom the encrease of which shall be without end. For it will crush all the worldly forms of government, have them blown away, and Christ's kingdom will fill the whole earth.

Jesus did not establish God's kingdom on Earth, so he can't be the Messiah according to Daniel. Or have all wordly governments been "crushed" and "blown away" and I missed it?
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Hmmm.

This could take some time.

You see the kingdom of Christ does not start firstly on the OUTSIDE and push its way INTO man's being. It starts in the INSIDE and works its way OUT of man's being.

Now lets consider:

"And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth, And sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthens - how, he does not know.

The earth bears fruit by itself: first a blade, then an ear, then the full grain in the ear.

But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come." (Mark 4:26-29)


Now no one said that this kingdom of God matter was simple no1Maurauder.

Notice above the the kingdom is a matter of growth. It is a process of growth through progressive stages.

1.) the seed sprouts - that's a stage of the kingdom.
2.) the seed lengthens - that's a further stage of the kingdom.
3.) the seed develops an ear - another stage of the kingdom.
4.) the full grain appears in the ear - another stage of the kingdom
5.) the fruit ripens - the final stage of the kingdom.


You see No1Maurader, each stage of devolopment is still part of the kingdom of God.

Now let's apply this to the Gospels. In the book of Acts Jesus sowed Himself into His believer. He got inside of them as the Holy Spirit - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45).


When Jesus was ascending the disciples asked about when the kingdom would be restored to Israel:

" So the ones who came together asked Him, saying, Lord, are You at this time restoring the kingdom to Israel? But He said to them, It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has set by His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:6-8)

In this present age of the new testament church the kingdom of God is in the growth stage of Christ indwelling the disciples and preaching the Gospel to all the world. This may not be the full grain in the ear but it is nonetheless a stage of the kingdom of God.

I hope that you can appreciate that some theological themes require more than a short Internet post to develop.

But the kingdom is an organic matter planted into the hearts of the ones whom Jesus regenerates. The have been born again into this kingdom. This kingdom life within is spreading and working its way out from the spirit of man into his whole soul and personality.

This is the growing and ripening process of the kingdom as Jesus taught in Mark 4:26-29.

The normal Christian church life is the current part of the kingdom of God -

"For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Rom. 14:17)

Paul is speaking to the new testament church. Notice he does not say that the kingdom of God WILL be something. He says that it presently IS something - "righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit".

For these two thousand years Christ has been accumlating from ALL of His people who got saved, those who are overcoming and living in righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Some have died, Some are still alive. But whether departed or living these group of overcomers is being added to more and more. They are being trained to live in the manifestation of this reality when Jesus comes a second time.

Now not every disciples chooses to cooperate with this process. Since it is voluntary, Jesus uses TIME, to accumlate the number that He requires to be co-kings with Him over the earth in His second coming.

If you read the Bible carefully you will see that before the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth, there is the 1,000 year millennial kingdom. That will be the manifestation of the kingdom. The disciples are to live in its reality in the age of grace. Then the manifestation of the reality that they have faithfully lived will run concurrent with that Messianic kingdom which He promised Israel.

The ripening process is now going on in the new testament constituents of the kingdom. Soon that ripening will be concluded and Christ will both send His sickle (the angels) to reap the crop of God's sons on the earth, and He will set down His throne of glory in the repentent Israel, right in Jerusalem. From there He will fill the earth with His kingdom and the overcoming believers will be co-kings with Him.

The defeated Christians will be in a kind of "summer school". But Israel will completely repent and recognize the Messiah as being the Jesus whom they crucified before. This is covered much in the book of Zechariah.

This is a brief word on a extensive subject.

Your questions or comments ?

Originally posted by jaywill
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jaywill: This is the Messianic kingdom the encrease of which shall be without end. For it will crush all the worldly forms of government, have them blown away, and Christ's kingdom will fill the whole earth.

Jesus did not establish God's kingdom on Earth, so he can't be the Messiah according to Daniel. Or have all word a brief word on a extensive subject.

Your questions or comments ?[/b]

Where it says in the OT that the Messiah will need a Second Coming to accomplish his prophesied tasks. Of course, the NT had to change the rules of the game so to speak, as Jesus clearly failed to do what the Messiah was supposed to do according to the prophesies. Quoting the NT gets you nowhere as regards this issue.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Where it says in the OT that the Messiah will need a Second Coming to accomplish his prophesied tasks. Of course, the NT had to change the rules of the game so to speak, as Jesus clearly failed to do what the Messiah was supposed to do according to the prophesies. Quoting the NT gets you nowhere as regards this issue.

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Where it says in the OT that the Messiah will need a Second Coming to accomplish his prophesied tasks. Of course, the NT had to change the rules of the game so to speak, as Jesus clearly failed to do what the Messiah was supposed to do according to the prophesies. Quoting the NT gets you nowhere as regards this issue.
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No. That is not what is going on.

Let's consider the case of Moses. He comes with Aaron and tells the enslaved Hebrews that he has come with God's authority to lead them out of Egypt. After speaking to Pharoah and performing some divine demonstrations Pharoah digs in and encreases the labors.

Of course at this stage some of the Hebrews want to stone Moses. "Where's this deliverance Moses ??"

And that was not the last time they doubted. All through the wilderness they murmured, wept, complained, even they sought to stone Moses and get themselves a leader to take them BACK to Egypt (the iron furnace of slavery).

God did eventually bring them into Canaan in His timing. Many lessons had to be learned. And a whole generation who were unbelieving INCLUDING Moses were not permitted to enter into Canaan.

Of the Exodus generation only thier children entered into the promise. Joshua and Caleb were the only two of the Exodus generation who were allowed to come in. Moses was permitted to see the Promise Land but not to enter into it.

Something similar is occuring with the Jewish rejection of Jesus. The kingdom is not suspended. It is an organic Person planted into the hearts of the saved disciples. This seed of life is growing and ripening. It will come to an harvest and Christ will come from two directions.

Listen, He will come from WITHIN - OUT. And He will come from ABOVE - DOWN. The two happen simultaneously.

He is not coming only from ABOVE - DOWN. He will not do that. He is coming from within as a growing Spirit which is saturating and permeating those of the saved who are cooperating with the process of SANCTIFICATION.

Your concept that we just remain the same in our natural constitution and the Messiah comes and rules over us is mistaken. His kindom is a kernel of divine life planted in His people.

If you want to participate in the kingdom of God you must receive this seed of life into your being.

I assume that you would rather not be the one crushed under the smiting stone.

"For it is contained in Scripture: Behold, I lay in Zion a cornerstone, chosen and precious; and he who believes on Him shall by no means be put to shame.

To you therefore who believe is the preciousness; but to the unbelieving, 'The stone which the builders rejected, this has become the head of the corner,'

And, 'A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense'; who stumble at the word, being disobedient, to which they also were appointed." (1 Pet. 2:6-8)


Let me ask you. You do not have to answer publically.

Did you ever put yourself in a room for a good half hour and PRAY and PRAY about this things?

You should balance your study time with an pretty much equal time of prayer to God with a full opened heart.

Originally posted by jaywill
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Where it says in the OT that the Messiah will need a Second Coming to accomplish his prophesied tasks. Of course, the NT had to change the rules of the game so to speak, as Jesus clearly failed to do what the Messiah was supposed to do according to the prophesies. Quoting the NT gets you nowhere as regards this issue.
study time with an pretty much equal time of prayer to God with a full opened heart.[/b]

This post is an off-topic evasion of the subject under discussion which was whether Jesus meets the criteria set forth in the OT prophecies for the Messiah. Since he clearly does not, you have little choice but to evade mention of them.

I'm not worried about being "crushed under the smiting stone" by a preposterous, anthropomorphic God that doesn't exist, so I wouldn't waste a half hour praying to this imaginary being. I might as well use that time to ask Santa for a new Porsch or Caissa for a higher rating.

Originally posted by no1marauder
This post is an off-topic evasion of the subject under discussion which was whether Jesus meets the criteria set forth in the OT prophecies for the Messiah. Since he clearly does not, you have little choice but to evade mention of them.

I'm not worried about being "crushed under the smiting stone" by a preposterous, anthropomorphic God ...[text shortened]... I might as well use that time to ask Santa for a new Porsch or Caissa for a higher rating.

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I'm not worried about being "crushed under the smiting stone" by a preposterous, anthropomorphic God that doesn't exist, so I wouldn't waste a half hour praying to this imaginary being. I might as well use that time to ask Santa for a new Porsch or Caissa for a higher rating.
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There must be some difference. I doubt that you spend as much energy and time studying up on how to refute Santa Claus.

Originally posted by jaywill
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I'm not worried about being "crushed under the smiting stone" by a preposterous, anthropomorphic God that doesn't exist, so I wouldn't waste a half hour praying to this imaginary being. I might as well use that time to ask Santa for a new Porsch or Caissa for a higher rating.
===================================[ ...[text shortened]... e. I doubt that you spend as much energy and time studying up on how to refute Santa Claus.[/b]

If a bunch of grown men were on this Forum explaining how he uses magic fairy dust to suspend time so he can get all the presents to every house in the world in one night I might.