19 Dec 08
Originally posted by no1marauder"It is amazing how something this flimsy can be regarded as evidence of anything. Only someone who approaches Isaiah 9:6 with preconceptions set in stone could possibly claim that it is a "prophecy" that has anything to do with Jesus."
It is amazing how something this flimsy can be regarded as evidence of anything. Only someone who approaches Isaiah 9:6 with preconceptions set in stone could possibly claim that it is a "prophecy" that has anything to do with Jesus.
The plain fact is that Isaiah 9 is relating a historical event that occurred 700 years prior to Jesus' bir ...[text shortened]... ovided; it's obvious you didn't bother to as you addressed not a single point raised there.
Only someone with a bias against Christians so entrenched in his mind could fail to see the clear reference to the messiah of Isaiah 9:6.
🙄
19 Dec 08
Originally posted by no1marauder
RC: that the Jewish expectations are based on the Hebrew scriptures is neither here not there. i really do find it amazing that you produce this defence, not only for this point but for others as well, how are these expectations valid with regard to the Messiah. they were waiting for an earthly kingdom, Christ stated to Pilate that his was ...[text shortened]... not the Messiah promised in the OT. For Christians to continue to claim he was is just silly.
"The Jews got it right; Jesus was not the Messiah promised in the OT. For Christians to continue to claim he was is just silly."
How obtuse can you be?
Do you really believe that Jesus was not the messiah prophesied of in the old testament just because He didn't establish the Kingdom of God on earth at that time as foretold?
It is abundantly clear that you understanding of prophesy is very narrow.
19 Dec 08
3 edits
Originally posted by no1marauder========================================
It is amazing how something this flimsy can be regarded as evidence of anything. Only someone who approaches Isaiah 9:6 with preconceptions set in stone could possibly claim that it is a "prophecy" that has anything to do with Jesus.
The plain fact is that Isaiah 9 is relating a historical event that occurred 700 years prior to Jesus' bir ...[text shortened]... ovided; it's obvious you didn't bother to as you addressed not a single point raised there.
It is amazing how something this flimsy can be regarded as evidence of anything. Only someone who approaches Isaiah 9:6 with preconceptions set in stone could possibly claim that it is a "prophecy" that has anything to do with Jesus.
=======================================
Its amazing that unbelief can be so persistent.
Take all the humans who have walked on this earth from the beginning of history. If God were to become a born child and a given son, who would you vote for as the most likely candidate ?
Who acted the most like God become a man ?
My vote is for Jesus of Nazareth. At least He said "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)
Skeptic revisionism is unreliable.
================================
The plain fact is that Isaiah 9 is relating a historical event that occurred 700 years prior to Jesus' birth. I suggest you actually read the link I provided; it's obvious you didn't bother to as you addressed not a single point raised there.
===================================
Let's see what Jesus has to say about the Old Testament. After His resurrection He told the downhearted disciples who did not yet recognize Him:
" ... O foolish and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into His glory?
And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, He explained to them clearly in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself." (Luke 24:25-27)
Now your job as a good skeptic is to go through all the prophecies and rationalize how you can disqualify them as refering to Christ.
"And He said to them, Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day,
And repentence for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things." (Luke 24:46-48)
Some of us, by God's mercy, have had our minds opened too.
"Then He opened their minds to understand the Scripture" (Luke 24:45)
Your skeptic website's job is to close our minds again and prove that it is NOT written concerning who and what Christ is and what He did.
I for one will not go back to the spiritual darkness.
"I and the Father as one." (John 10:30)
I am going to believe that Isaiah 9:6 refers to the child who was God incarnate and the Son who said He and the Father were one.
20 Dec 08
Originally posted by jaywillYou are clearly a believer and so I again ask you if what I am proposing in my earlier post is what you believe? You replied "Nope" stating that Jesus and God are "two separate entities". And yet here you quote the scriptual truth "I and the Father are one".
"I and the Father as one." (John 10:30)
I am going to believe that Isaiah 9:6 refers to the child who was God incarnate and the Son who said He and the Father were one.[/b]
This is a critical issue and the whole point of this thread - so, which is it my friend; is Jesus God (LORD/Jehovah) or not?
May I politely refer you to my previous post detailing some scripture references indicating that Jesus was the "invisible God made visible" and that "in him dwelt the FULLNESS of the Godhead in bodily form."
This question is a massive issue for the church: to claim 3 gods in one entity is heresy and stems from roman paganism. To accept Jesus as the enbodyment of the living God is foolishness for some, although not for me I have to assert.
20 Dec 08
Originally posted by josephwDo you deny that the OT prophecies regarding the Messiah stated he would establish an earthly kingdom?
[b]"The Jews got it right; Jesus was not the Messiah promised in the OT. For Christians to continue to claim he was is just silly."
How obtuse can you be?
Do you really believe that Jesus was not the messiah prophesied of in the old testament just because He didn't establish the Kingdom of God on earth at that time as foretold?
It is abundantly clear that you understanding of prophesy is very narrow.[/b]
20 Dec 08
Originally posted by josephwThere is no such reference and I think you know it.
[b]"It is amazing how something this flimsy can be regarded as evidence of anything. Only someone who approaches Isaiah 9:6 with preconceptions set in stone could possibly claim that it is a "prophecy" that has anything to do with Jesus."
Only someone with a bias against Christians so entrenched in his mind could fail to see the clear reference to the messiah of Isaiah 9:6.
🙄[/b]
20 Dec 08
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderperhaps if you were little more specific as to which messianic prophesies you are referring to, we ourselves could give a more precise answer, for to be sure there are many, not simply relating to one aspect, but to many, so make with the reddies my good man, so that we may be done with this topic and reassure you that Christ was indeed the prophesied Messiah.
Do you deny that the OT prophecies regarding the Messiah stated he would establish an earthly kingdom?
20 Dec 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAnswer the question first. If you concede that the OT prophecies say the Messiah will establish an earthly kingdom, then sites would be unnecessary. If you deny that the OT prophecies say that the Messiah will establish an earthly kingdom, I'll easily make you look silly by direct quotations from the OT.
perhaps if you were little more specific as to which messianic prophesies you are referring to, we ourselves could give a more precise answer, for to be sure there are many, not simply relating to one aspect, but to many.
20 Dec 08
Originally posted by jaywillSo you won't read anything that doesn't wholeheartedly support what you have been told. No surprise.
[b]========================================
It is amazing how something this flimsy can be regarded as evidence of anything. Only someone who approaches Isaiah 9:6 with preconceptions set in stone could possibly claim that it is a "prophecy" that has anything to do with Jesus.
=======================================
Its amazing that unbelief ca ...[text shortened]... e child who was God incarnate and the Son who said He and the Father were one.[/b]
"The skeptics website" which you refuse to even look at was written by Jews who according to you have absolutely no knowledge of the OT.
20 Dec 08
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderactually i am not afraid of being made to look silly, if there is contradiction i view it as an opportunity for learning, if the matter cannot reasonably be resolved then so be it, as for myself, i have never seriously considered that Christ was not the messiah, for to be sure there are many prophecies which lend themselves to this simple conclusion, biblically, which you have already denied on quite insufficient grounds, you're main line of defence being what the Jews did or did not accept ?????
Answer the question first. If you concede that the OT prophecies say the Messiah will establish an earthly kingdom, then sites would be unnecessary. If you deny that the OT prophecies say that the Messiah will establish an earthly kingdom, I'll easily make you look silly by direct quotations from the OT.
20 Dec 08
Originally posted by no1marauderfor understanding to take place, how the material under question relates to its composite parts in its immediate context and to the composition as a whole requires more than knowledge, it requires understanding. knowledge is never enough.
So you won't read anything that doesn't wholeheartedly support what you have been told. No surprise.
"The skeptics website" which you refuse to even look at was written by Jews who according to you have absolutely no knowledge of the OT.
20 Dec 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSo you refuse to answer the question; why is that? Of course, you "have never seriously considered that Christ was not the messiah" - you seem to have been very well indoctrinated.
actually i am not afraid of being made to look silly, if there is contradiction i view it as an opportunity for learning, if the matter cannot reasonably be resolved then so be it, as for myself, i have never seriously considered that Christ was not the messiah, for to be sure there are many prophecies which lend themselves to this simple conclusion, ...[text shortened]... sufficient grounds, you're main line of defence being what the Jews did or did not accept ?????
Try this for starters:
There are a number of other Messianic prophecies that Jesus did not fulfill. Here are just a few: World Peace did not come at the time of Jesus (Isaiah 2:1-4), the entire world did not acknowledge G-d as the one true G-d (Zechariah 14:9), the Holy Temple was not rebuilt (Ezekiel 37: 26-28) and Jesus did not gather the Jewish people from all of the earth to land of Israel (Isaiah 11:10-12). There are many other Messianic prophecies that Jesus did not fulfill, the above were just a few of the major failures.
http://www.geocities.com/realjewsforjesus/MJFAQ.html
The site is a good read for someone who has "never seriously considered that Christ was not the messiah" though like others here, you don't seem to want to read anything that doesn't support your dogma.
20 Dec 08
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhy do you suppose that the knowledge people have brainwashed you with shows more understanding of the Jewish prophecies than that of experts in the Torah and Tanakh?
for understanding to take place, how the material under question relates to its composite parts in its immediate context and to the composition as a whole requires more than knowledge, it requires understanding. knowledge is never enough.
20 Dec 08
Originally posted by no1marauder===================================
So you won't read anything that doesn't wholeheartedly support what you have been told. No surprise.
"The skeptics website" which you refuse to even look at was written by Jews who according to you have absolutely no knowledge of the OT.
So you won't read anything that doesn't wholeheartedly support what you have been told. No surprise.
"The skeptics website" which you refuse to even look at was written by Jews who according to you have absolutely no knowledge of the OT.
====================================
I'll read it. I'll read it. Big deal.
I'm not scared to read it.
20 Dec 08
Originally posted by no1marauderquite simply because these things are examined spiritually, not physically, that is simply why you, the Jews and many others cannot grasp the truths contained in the word of god, because firstly you have the wrong attitude and secondly they are examined spiritually. that the kingdom was a spiritual entity, even Christ himself demonstrated before Pilate, the great folly that you and others make is that once you deny the spiritual element, you try to rationalise things in human terms, thus being completely devoid of spirituality, the truths remain beyond your grasp, its that simple. that this simple truth is also evident in your character is also true, therefore i am sorry but if you cannot discuss a matter without reference to insult then please do not respond to my posts.
Why do you suppose that the knowledge people have brainwashed you with shows more understanding of the Jewish prophecies than that of experts in the Torah and Tanakh?