Originally posted by no1marauderi do not refuse, i am simply looking at my games of chess, i will consider the matter before answering.
So you refuse to answer the question; why is that? Of course, you "have never seriously considered that Christ was not the messiah" - you seem to have been very well indoctrinated.
Try this for starters:
There are a number of other Messianic prophecies that Jesus did not fulfill. Here are just a few: World Peace did not c ...[text shortened]... like others here, you don't seem to want to read anything that doesn't support your dogma.
Okay Marauder1,
After reading your article here's my brief reply.
It stated:
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Hezekiah is called "the everlasting Father" because this name is a sign, which foretells that God will add years to his life. "Go, and say to Hezekiah: Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will add to your days fifteen years" (Isaiah 38:5).
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Many if not perhaps all of the positive figures in the Old Testament are forshadows of the Messiah.
Since the Son of God is so profound, over the centries a portion, a piece of His character was seen in different imperfect yet exemplarary figures of the Old Testament.'
Some of the people who foreshadowed Christ were:
Adam,
Isaac,
Moses,
Aaron,
David,
Solomon,
Elijah,
Elisha,
Hezekiah.
None of these men were absolutely pleasing to God. God did add years to Hezekiah's life. But immediately afterward he made his biggest mistake of showing off his riches to the Chaldeans.
So much for the Wonderful Counselor. His legacy was almost pristine. Perhaps he should have died when God told him that it was time for him to die. The begging for additional time only caused his weaknesses to be exposed.
When the prophet told Hezekiah that misfortune would follow after him because of his late folly his response was equally disappointing. He said in essense "Just as long as there is peace in my own time, who cares what happens after me?"
So much for the Wonderful Counselor. In the last analysis he cared only for himself. He was not THAT wonderful.
Now, even if the prophecy had its immediate reference to Hezekiah, we see that he was not as qualified to be its recipient as Jesus Christ is. He may have been a prefigure, a foreshadow, a symbolic precursor of the Mighty God child and the Everlasting Father Son. But he fell short.
It is no wonder than that the divine speaking said of Jesus "This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him."
After all these positive examples of traits of the coming Messiah are seen in the OT, finally the Beloved Son comes with perfection and superceeds them all.
"God, having spoken of old in many portions and in many ways to the fgathers in the prophets, Has at the ast of these days spoken to us in the Son, whom He appointed Heir of all things ..." (Hebrews 1:1,2)
The Spirit of God bore up the prophets as a wind blows in a ship sale propelling it along. They spoke things with immediate significance but which also had prophetic significance for a distant future.
Hezekiah died and imperfect so called "Mighty God, Prince of Peace, Wonderful Counselor." He was good. But he was not as good as the Son of God.
So we believe that the ultimate anti-type of the type was the Son of God.
As Jesus said that something greater than Jonah was there with Him.
"For just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights... Behold something more than Jonah is here." (Matt. 12:40,41b)
Jesus is the real Jonah.
Jesus is also the real Solomon.
"The queen of the south will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something more than Solomon is here." (Matt. 12:42)
Based on this principle that many positive figures of the old testament were imperfect prefigures of the Son of God to come, we believe that Christ more perfectly is the ultimate target of Isaiah 9:6 and not Hezekiah.
I think if we were there to ASK Hezekiah if he were that wonderful a Mighty God and Everlasting Father / Prince of Peace he would probably say:
" Sorry folks. I'm not quite that good. "
Originally posted by jaywillSince you now pretty much concede that Isaiah 9:6 is not a direct prophesy regarding Jesus, I'd say my work is done. Your convoluted "well every notable person in the OT is a "foreshadow" of the Messiah", is flimsy, circular reasoning that doesn't require a refutation.
[/b]Okay Marauder1,
After reading your article here's my brief reply.
It stated:
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Hezekiah is called "the everlasting Father" because this name is a sign, which foretells that God will add years to his life. "Go, and say to Hezekiah: Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer, e would probably say:
[b]" Sorry folks. I'm not quite that good. "[/b]
Hezekiah may not have been perfect, but he did fulfill the conditions set forth in Isaiah 9:6 and the siege was lifted then, not 700 years in the future. His supposed shortcomings don't change those unpleasant (for your theology) Biblical "facts".
EDIT: You keep saying "we" in your post. Is this yet another unattributed copy & paste?
Originally posted by no1marauderi would not say that you're work is quite done, no no, its just beginning! for i have before me of 456 references from the old testament applied to the messiah or to messianic times from the most ancient Jewish writings, (the Pentateuch, the prophets, the Hagiographa and various rabbinic writings, the targumim, the two Talmuds, the midrashim, the yalkut ) and this list is by no means exhaustive.
Since you now pretty much concede that Isaiah 9:6 is [b]not a direct prophesy regarding Jesus, I'd say my work is done. Your convoluted "well every notable person in the OT is a "foreshadow" of the Messiah", is flimsy, circular reasoning that doesn't require a refutation.
Hezekiah may not have been perfect, but he did fulfill the con IT: You keep saying "we" in your post. Is this yet another unattributed copy & paste?[/b]
that Jewish thought was at times incredulous and self contradictory and correlated to the fashion of the times with regard to expression of thought is most enlightening. for at the beginning the messiah and his rule are almost of a divine nature, his kingdom higher than that which was earthly, while later these ideas are influenced by political and religious factors and his realm becomes earthly.
for example, when regarding,
genesis 39:10 'The scepter will not turn aside from Judah, neither the commanders staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong.'
Numbers 24:7 and 17, 'Water keeps trickling from his two leather buckets,And his seed is by many waters. His king also will be higher than Agag, And his kingdom will be lifted up.
I shall see him, but not now, I shall behold him, but not near.
A star will certainly step forth out of Jacob, nd a scepter will indeed rise out of Israel. And he will certainly break apart the temples of Moabs head ad the cranium of all the sons of tumult of war.
clearly indicating the almost divine nature of the kingdom, its elevation above earthly kingdoms
going even further, psalm 72:5 and 7 conveys the idea that the messiah was premundane and eternal, being before the moon and the morning star, for it reads,'
' They will fear you as long as there is a sun, and before the moon for generation after generation.',
' In his days the righteous one will sprout, And the abundance of peace until the moon is no more.',
and especially Isaiah chapter 9 which also conveys the idea of eternity and thus divinity., his superiority to men and angels, which is also fully confirmed by the Targum.
all the more striking are the illusions of the messiah in the pseudoepigraphic writings, thus the third book of the sibylline oracles, which with a few exceptions is dated to 150 years prior to christ, presents a picture of Messianic times, for it speaks of,' a king sent from heaven, who would judge every man in blood and splendour of fire', that a superhuman kingdom should have a superhuman king is practically self evident.
even yet more distinct, are the statements of the so called, book of Enoch, have similar expressions of the supernatural signifying superiority over all and divinity.
plus the psalter of Solomon, the 4th book of Esdras and the apocalypse of Baruch, also explicitly state his premundane existence and majesty and eternity.
therefore as has been readily demonstrated, thought with regard to the Messiah changed in essence over time, but that he was initially thought of as supernatural, having a premundane existence, that his rule would supersede all, that it was a supernatural kingdom is easily derived from the sources quoted.
oh yes nearly forgot my disclaimer seeing that persons may use controversy with regard to the source as an excuse to ignore the content.
disclaimer:please note that all references sited are from external sources and in no way whatsoever are to be regarded as robbie carrobies own work, but merely illustrate his point of view. Any similarity to the name, character and history of any person, living or dead, is entirely coincidental and unintentional
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWe've heard the Secret Decoder Ring Theory here many times; it's the fall back position of the type of "Christians" on this Forum when their arguments have been shown to have no rational basis. That attitude is more insulting on a Forum then anything I have said here.
quite simply because these things are examined spiritually, not physically, that is simply why you, the Jews and many others cannot grasp the truths contained in the word of god, because firstly you have the wrong attitude and secondly they are examined spiritually. that the kingdom was a spiritual entity, even Christ himself demonstrated before Pila ...[text shortened]... you cannot discuss a matter without reference to insult then please do not respond to my posts.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThis is another obvious cut and paste. Where did you get it from?
i would not say that you're work is quite done, no no, its just beginning! for i have before me of 456 references from the old testament applied to the messiah or to messianic times from the most ancient Jewish writings, (the Pentateuch, the prophets, the Hagiographa and various rabbinic writings, the targumim, the two Talmuds, the midrashim, the yal ...[text shortened]... and history of any person, living or dead, is entirely coincidental and unintentional
Originally posted by no1marauderno its not a cut and paste, i simply went to my library, picked up a book, looked at its contents, assimilated the material and posted it. the book, not that it matters is,' the life and times of the Messiah, written by Alfred Edersheim, so make with the readies my good man, and we can proceed!
This is another obvious cut and paste. Where did you get it from?
Originally posted by no1marauderits not insulting, its just a fact of life, you're oversensitive thats all, which i hasten to add, is not necessarily a bad thing.
We've heard the Secret Decoder Ring Theory here many times; it's the fall back position of the type of "Christians" on this Forum when their arguments have been shown to have no rational basis. That attitude is more insulting on a Forum then anything I have said here.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI don't like dealing with frauds. I also don't like people who pass off the words of other people as their own which you just did AGAIN. I also don't particularly care for people who are so lazy they can't formulate their own thoughts (but I guess I shouldn't expect anything better from someone who has conceded he never even considered the possibility that Jesus wasn't the Messiah).
no its not a cut and paste, i simply went to my library, picked up a book, looked at its contents, assimilated the material and posted it. the book, not that it matters is,' the life and times of the Messiah, written by Alfred Edersheim, so make with the readies my good man, and we can proceed!
I write my own posts and when I use someone else's words to support my conclusions, I give a site. You should start doing the same if you want to be taken seriously.
Originally posted by no1marauderIsaiah 2:1-4 refers to the last days, not to Jesus time on earth. Jesus himself said "i have NOT come to bring peace on earth"
So you refuse to answer the question; why is that? Of course, you "have never seriously considered that Christ was not the messiah" - you seem to have been very well indoctrinated.
Try this for starters:
There are a number of other Messianic prophecies that Jesus did not fulfill. Here are just a few: World Peace did not c ...[text shortened]... like others here, you don't seem to want to read anything that doesn't support your dogma.
The passage in Zec refers also the "the day of the Lord", which as you very well know is not within Jesus lifetime
Same with EZ Jesus IS the tabernacle - these are visions of his return how can you attempt to say they about Jesus life before crucifixion?
I suspect it is you who are the one who may have been indoctrinated.
I will not get drawn into a insulting rally with you so please refrain from that approach if you choose to reply ,thanks.
Originally posted by no1marauder===================================
Since you now pretty much concede that Isaiah 9:6 is [b]not a direct prophesy regarding Jesus, I'd say my work is done. Your convoluted "well every notable person in the OT is a "foreshadow" of the Messiah", is flimsy, circular reasoning that doesn't require a refutation.
Hezekiah may not have been perfect, but he did fulfill the con IT: You keep saying "we" in your post. Is this yet another unattributed copy & paste?[/b]
Since you now pretty much concede that Isaiah 9:6 is not a direct prophesy regarding Jesus, I'd say my work is done.
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You may always strut around and proclaim victory. However, I did not concede that Isaiah 9:6 is NOT ABOUT JESUS, which is your erroneous premise.
On the contrary, Isaiah 9:6 has to be about Jesus because it is not a matter of vain titles but reality. No one is more quaified to be called the child born who is the Mighty God than Jesus some 700 years latter.
No one is more qualified to be the "son given" who is the Everlasting Father than Jesus.
And no one is more qualified to be called PEHLEh - Wonderful than Jesus. Let me say a word about PEHLEH - Wonderful.
This Hebrew word takes on these meanings:
something unheard of,
something unusual,
extraordinary,
hard to understand,
beyond one's powers,
too difficult,
incomprehensible
We see the word used in Gen. 18:14 - "Is anything TOO HARD for the Lord."
Again in Psalm 139:6 - "Such knowledge is TOO WONDERFUL for me; it is high, I cannot attain it."
We see it used in Judges 13:18 - "But the angel of the Lord said to him, Why do you ask My name, seeing it is Wonderful."
Franze Delitzsch in his Old Testament commentaries on Isaiah 9:6 said:
"He is first called Wonderful, which means He is incomprehensible to mortal men: He is a phenomenon lying altogether beyond human conception or natural occurrence. Not only is this or that wonderful in Him, but He Himself is throughout a wonder."
Who really qualifies to be this Wonderful, unheard of, incomprehensible Person who is beyond our powers to fully understand? It is of course the Son of God ... The Word was with God. And the Word was God.
Isaiah 9:6 therefore has to be about the incarnation of God into a man, an act which is "too high" for our typical knowledge. We cannot attain to it, it being beyond our powers to explain how God Almighty could spend nine months in the womb of a human virgin and be born.
Jesus of course confirmed this that if we could not believe that He was in the Father and the Father was in Him, then we should believe because of the works He performs:
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works.
Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves." (John 14:10,11)
So Maurauder1, forget about Hezekiah. The prophecy concerns the Eternal Father who was incarnated and came to us as the Son, speaking His words and doing His works.
Your "work" (links) of opposing the revelation of the Son of God is stopped in its tracks.
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Your convoluted "well every notable person in the OT is a "foreshadow" of the Messiah", is flimsy, circular reasoning that doesn't require a refutation.
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To those "foolish and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken" it may seem flimsy. But to us who have experienced the Son who is "unto us" we can say with Paul -
"For as many promises of God as there are, in Him [Christ] is the Yes; therefore also through Him is the Amen to God ..." (2 Cor. 1:20)
So the promise of Isaiah 9:6 also finds its Yes in Jesus Christ. And by His mercy we believers utter the Amen to God's Yes in Christ.
Originally posted by no1marauderno you don't, not this time! you will notice at the bottom of the post that there is a disclaimer, i never once intended that these words should be regarded as my own, not once! that i do not have the book in question and that the material was lifted from an internet site is simply without foundation, i can give you the publishers name, the date of publication, everything, or are we now to conclude that books are also inappropriate research material? it has nothing to do with my own thoughts, after all one must make an informed decision somehow, therefore your claims of fraud and deceit wont wash this time, no no, let the forum be quite clear, its just another vain attempt to deflect attention away from the actual content, which i must assume by your silence on the matter, you find somewhat disturbing to your claims. therefore let it be known, you have asserted something for which you have either no proof or cannot substantiate and which you boasted that others would be made to look silly in view of your superior intellect and unassailable logic, let it be a lesson to you!
I don't like dealing with frauds. I also don't like people who pass off the words of other people as their own which you just did AGAIN. I also don't particularly care for people who are so lazy they can't formulate their own thoughts (but I guess I shouldn't expect anything better from someone who has conceded he never even considered the possibility th ...[text shortened]... usions, I give a site. You should start doing the same if you want to be taken seriously.
No1Maurauder's website says this:
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Hezekiah is called "the ruler of peace" because this name is a sign, which foretells that God would be merciful to him. Punishment for lack of faith in the Almighty will be deferred and peace granted during the last years of his rule. "Then said Hezekiah to Isaiah: 'Good is the word of the Lord which you have spoken.' He said moreover: 'If but there shall be peace and security in my days'" (Isaiah 39:8).
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What these commentators fail to notice is the selfish irony of Hezekiah's statement - that "If there will be peace and security in my days"
In other words, he really doesn't CARE what happens to the kingdom just as long as his personal legacy goes down in history like a hero - " ... Indeed there will be peace and truth in MY days" (emphasis mine)
Does a wise king of Israel only care for his personal reputation ?
One translation I read said that he said this in his heart, meaning it was a secret saying in himself. But God heard it and recorded it.
I think the point of chapter 39 is that when it was time for Hezekiah to die God probably knew that he would not be able to take any further testing of his character. When Hezekiah pleads for extra years and is granted them, immediately we read of his ego boasting to the Chaldeans about his treasures (Isa. 39:1-8) This was a great failure for which his descendents and his kingdom will suffer.
Isaiah the prophet scolds Hezekiah with God's word -
"The days are now coming when everything that is in your house and that your fathers have laod up as a trasure unto this day will be carried away to Babylon; NOTHING WILL BE LEFT, says Jehovah.
And they will take away some of your SONS who will issue from you, whom you will beget, and they will become eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon." (v.6,7)
To this horrendous calamity Hezekiah only cares that while he is alive there will be peace. He won't have to see it. How selfish. He even cares nothing for his own sons who are to become eunuchs in Babylon !
Hezekiah does not come up to the standard of the Messianic Divine / Human Governor of the prophecy.
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The fulfillment of the above-stated declarations is foretold in Isaiah 9:6, when, after the Assyrian defeat, Hezekiah's glory increased and peace reigned for the rest of his life (2 Chronicles 32:23). Archaeologists have found that there was a sudden expansion of Judean settlements in the years following the fall of the northern kingdom. This indicates that many refugees fled south, thus giving added significance to the statement "that the government may be increased."
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A much better parellel is the kingdom which fills the whole earth when the stone of Daniel's vision hits the image, scattering it in fragments to the four winds, and grows into a mountian. This is Daniel's vision of the Divine Government under the God anointed Messiah:
"You were watching and until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the image at its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed all at once, and they became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that no trace o them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and FILLED THE WHOLE EARTH." (Dan. 2:34,35)
Inasmuch as you saw that out of the mountain a stone was cut without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold, the great God has made know to the king what will happen afterwards; (Dan. 2:45)
This is the Messianic kingdom the encrease of which shall be without end. For it will crush all the worldly forms of government, have them blown away, and Christ's kingdom will fill the whole earth.
Some scattering of Hezekiah's subject to the south is far short of this kind of universal world wide encrease that Daniel ascribed to the Messiah.
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The greatness of Hezekiah lies in his setting the stage for Israel's future. Hezekiah was a true reformer. He cleansed religious worship of foreign influence, purged the palace and the Temple of images and pagan altars, and reestablished pure monotheistic religion.
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Hezekiah was indeed great. But no one including Hezekiah is as well pleasing to God as the Son.
If Hezekiah had not had his post healing failure, he would have been greater.
Jesus, on the other hand, sweat drops of blood at the garden insisting that it would not be His will that would be done, but His Father's. He poured out His soul unto death for the will of the Father. He was not like Hezekiah who cared only for his own day and reputation.
Jesus is the greater Jonah, the greater Solomon, the greater temple, and the greater Hezekiah too.
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In the long run Hezekiah's achievements would outlive him, leaving an everlasting, indelible impact on the history of his people.
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His material achievements were to be carried off to Babylon as the prophet Isaiah foretold in (Isaiah 39:7)
" ... everything that is in your house and that your fathers have laid up as a treasure unto this day will be carried away to Babylon; NOTHING WILL BE LEFT, says Jehovah." (my emphasis)
There are two lines in the prophecy of 9:6:
1.) The human child is God.
2.) The given Son is the Father.
This is astounding and miraculous. How could God the Creator of all be a little baby child? How could the Son be the Eternal Father.
The prophecy points to Jesus the Son of God as its ultimate meaning.
I bet that it was probably one of the passages that the resurrected Jesus spoke of when " ... He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures; ,,, that all things written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms concerning Me must be fulfilled."
I pray that no1maurader and the authors of this unbeliving article would have their minds opened by God also to see Jesus is the incarnation of God in man.