31 Jan 11
Originally posted by RBHILLLet me see if I have this straight. Non-christians are destined to go to hell, burn all over their body for ever and ever and no hope of salvation. So the Aborigines in all the hidden spots of the world, atheists, Buddhists, Jaynes, Hindu's, Muslims, Jews, and Catholics all go to hell. And that from a god who is omniscient, who knew in advance millions of years before humanity even came into existence, who of the future race of humans, would be going to hell, and this god never went to the trouble to tell that to the inuit, the Aztec, the tolmecs, the Ainu in Japan, all these aborigines go to hell.
I am saved so therefore i don't have to fear. LOL you have it in reverse.
Because your bible says so, a book written by men.
That is such a great religion you have there. I want it. NOT.
31 Jan 11
Originally posted by sonhouseThat is way he is sending his believers to witness to the lost.
Let me see if I have this straight. Non-christians are destined to go to hell, burn all over their body for ever and ever and no hope of salvation. So the Aborigines in all the hidden spots of the world, atheists, Buddhists, Jaynes, Hindu's, Muslims, Jews, and Catholics all go to hell. And that from a god who is omniscient, who knew in advance millions of y ...[text shortened]... so, a book written by men.
That is such a great religion you have there. I want it. NOT.
31 Jan 11
3 edits
Originally posted by sonhouse=======================================
Let me see if I have this straight. Non-christians are destined to go to hell, burn all over their body for ever and ever and no hope of salvation. So the Aborigines in all the hidden spots of the world, atheists, Buddhists, Jaynes, Hindu's, Muslims, Jews, and Catholics all go to hell. And that from a god who is omniscient, who knew in advance millions of y ...[text shortened]... so, a book written by men.
That is such a great religion you have there. I want it. NOT.
Let me see if I have this straight.
==============================
Okay. Let's see if you do have this straight.
=======================
Non-christians are destined to go to hell, burn all over their body for ever and ever and no hope of salvation. So the Aborigines in all the hidden spots of the world, atheists, Buddhists, Jaynes, Hindu's, Muslims, Jews, and Catholics all go to hell.
========================
Well, sonhouse, to tell the truth I am not sure that you have it straight. There is a good possibility that you do not have it straight.
Consider this passage which may indicate that your concept is not all that "straight". Speaking of the second coming of Christ, Paul writes:
" ... rest with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire,
Rendering vengence to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 2 Thess. 1:7,8)
If you look carefully at this wording you see TWO catagories of people who will suffer the vengence of God.
1.) "those who do not know God"
2.) "those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"
I notice that it does not say "those who do not" KNOW "the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". But it says those who do not "obey" to gospel of Jesus Christ.
I think there is at least plausible ground to understand Paul to be saying, the refusal to believe in the Son of God, ie. the rejection of the Lordship of Jesus meets with divine vengence and ignorance of it two different things.
Now I don't know for sure that this is the proper interpretation. But it is arguable that that is what Paul meant. In his letter to the Romans he wrote that to not believe in God as the Creator is without excuse. That may be the indictment upon #1 - "Those who do not know God" . That should include atheism.
But the other catagory "those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" definitely means rejectors of the message of Christ the Son of God. I am not sure it means those who cannot disobey because they don't know what is being commanded of them.
So I am not sure you have it straight.
But you would do well to understand that you are not in the ignorant catagory. You have to come to grips with the decision to obey the Gospel and believe Christ is also your Lord and Savior or disobey the Gospel and disbelieve that He is Son of God to be your Lord and Savior.
You may not be straight on everything. But you have long been straight about the most essential truth you have to decide on.
I am praying for you as well as others here.
31 Jan 11
Originally posted by twhiteheadPunishment and rewards are just recompense for actions done for both the good
I don't see why evil and good wouldn't apply to God and angels, I simply don't think punishment for evil makes any sense without extenuating circumstances.
In human society, punishment serves two basic purposes:
1. As a deterrent.
2. Revenge (a feeling we get which has come about due to evolution).
Imprisonment serves two purposes, punishment and en ...[text shortened]... e 1. can not apply when repeat offences are not possible, or enforced prevention is possible.
and the bad. Which can have a deterrent affect and have nothing to do with
revenge, but may too I suppose.
Kelly
31 Jan 11
Originally posted by RBHILLWhy does an omniscient god need to have mere humans to be witnesses when such a god knew all about this hell thing, who would go, who would be on high and all that as soon as this god made the universe, since it knew exactly where every atom, every sub atomic particle was, is and where in the future they all go including every action of every human on earth. Why would such a god need witnesses?
That is way he is sending his believers to witness to the lost.
Your religion is getting more and more irrelevant day by day with the increasing complexity of modern society, mores changing, moral dilemma's growing in complexity, way out of bounds to be judged by a 2000 year old book.
31 Jan 11
Originally posted by KellyJayI know you believe punishment to be 'just recompense' but I am interested in why you believe that. Is it in you opinion:
Punishment and rewards are just recompense for actions done for both the good
and the bad. Which can have a deterrent affect and have nothing to do with
revenge, but may too I suppose.
Kelly
1. A brute fact. ie something that 'just is' and never will be explained.
2. Something you know to be true, either via intuition, message from God or some other means, but cannot explain.
3. Something you can explain via rational argument or as part of some system of morality.
It is just that many people seem to believe as you do that punishment is a natural and obvious part of justice, but I for one have failed to find a rational argument for why it should be part of a system of morality other than for the two purposes I have given ie as a deterrent, and preventative.
31 Jan 11
Originally posted by twhiteheadIf you don't grasp justice how am I supposed to make you see it?
I know you believe punishment to be 'just recompense' but I am interested in why you believe that. Is it in you opinion:
1. A brute fact. ie something that 'just is' and never will be explained.
2. Something you know to be true, either via intuition, message from God or some other means, but cannot explain.
3. Something you can explain via rational arg ...[text shortened]... f morality other than for the two purposes I have given ie as a deterrent, and preventative.
You don't believe that if you work for an agreed upon amount of wages that is
what you should get? You think if you do something very bad to another the
whole universe should just let it pass as if nothing good or bad has occured?
You think if you live in a land of law that if you break the laws that whatever the
punishment for that crime should not be dealt out to you? You have to have
crimes and punishment explained to you, seriously? If you view the univese as it is
something that should let all actions pass as if they are all the same, you are a
dangerous person, and I'd not want you anywhere near my family and friends!
I don't get your mind set at all, you really don't get justice? You think the only
thing going on during a punishment is revenge and us stopping it from happening
again?
Kelly
01 Feb 11
Originally posted by sonhouse1. That is the way He has chosen to do it.
Why does an omniscient God need to have mere humans to be witnesses when such a God knew all about this hell thing, who would go, who would be on high and all that as soon as this God made the universe, since it knew exactly where every atom, every sub atomic particle was, is and where in the future they all go including every action of every human on earth ...[text shortened]... moral dilemma's growing in complexity, way out of bounds to be judged by a 2000 year old book.
2. He also gives dreams and vision to people to repent. Most people pass it off. Ex. my dad had a dream of Jesus caring his cross in surgery once but he just passes it off.
3. Muslims have dreams of him and become Christians without ever hearing of who Jesus is. Believe it your not there are still over 1,000 people groups that have not heard the gospel.
4. Just because it is about 2000 years why would that matter?
5. God uses the world around him as a witness as the first chapter of Romans claims.
Romans 10:14-16
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”
01 Feb 11
Originally posted by KellyJayHence the need for deterrent and incarceration in some cases. But that does not explain your belief that it is morally correct for me to suffer for my morally bad actions even if I am never allowed near your family and friends - or anyone else for that matter.
If you view the univese as it is something that should let all actions pass as if they are all the same, you are a
dangerous person, and I'd not want you anywhere near my family and friends!
If you don't grasp justice how am I supposed to make you see it?
Well the first question is whether you see it, and in what way you see it. You seem to be implying that you answer to my question (which you avoided) is no 2. You cannot explain justice, you believe it to be true by intuition.
You have to have crimes and punishment explained to you, seriously?
Yes, I am quite serious. I have brought up this topic many times in the past (most frequently with knightmeister) and have never got a satisfactory explanation.
I don't get your mind set at all, you really don't get justice? You think the only
thing going on during a punishment is revenge and us stopping it from happening
again?
Yes, thats about it, and I am yet to see any argument to the contrary. Though you don't seem to realize it, everything you have said in this post fits very well with this view of justice.
01 Feb 11
2 edits
Originally posted by sonhouse=======================================
Why does an omniscient god need to have mere humans to be witnesses when such a god knew all about this hell thing, who would go, who would be on high and all that as soon as this god made the universe, since it knew exactly where every atom, every sub atomic particle was, is and where in the future they all go including every action of every human on earth ...[text shortened]... moral dilemma's growing in complexity, way out of bounds to be judged by a 2000 year old book.
Why does an omniscient god need to have mere humans to be witnesses when such a god knew all about this hell thing, who would go, who would be on high and all that as soon as this god made the universe, since it knew exactly where every atom, every sub atomic particle was, is and where in the future they all go including every action of every human on earth. Why would such a god need witnesses?
==========================================
The main Witness if God Himself incarnated as a man - Jesus Christ. Christ is called " ... Jesus Christ, the faithful Witness, the Firstborn from the dead ..." (Rev. 1:5) This is God and man united to be "the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the beginning of the creation of God " (Rev. 3:14).
The primary Witness is not "mere human". He is Godman. And to what does He witness ? He is a witness to the new creation of God. The phrase "the beginning of the creation of God" here does not refer to the universe as it was first created. It refers to the new creation of God and man mingled. It is the new creation stemming from the resurrection of Christ when humanity was deified. Christ rose from the dead and ascended back to the eternal throne of God wearing forever the humanity which He took on in incarnation and uplifted in resurrection.
So the primary Witness is God-man, God united with humanity. Now what about the other witnesses ? They too are Godmen as Christ has been dispensed into them. They are not only forgiven. They are regenerated to become Godmen and members of Christ's corporate Body.
This is why when Saul of Tarsus was persecuting the early Christian church, Jesus appeared to him and said "Saul, Saul, Why do you persecute ME?"
The believers, the forgiven, reconciled, justified believers were now the extension of God united and mingled with man. God is in them now as divine life. So the angel told the apostles "Go and stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this life." (Acts 5:20)
This divine and eternal life of God in Christ is now imparted into the saved ones. To persecute them is to persecute Christ Himself. And what they witness to is the divine life of God which is now indwelling them.
Justification and forgiveness of God is not for the sake of forgiveness alone as an end in itself. Forgiveness is a means to the end of the dispensing of God into man for the mingling of divinity and humanity, to "mass produce" Godmen as the new creation of the begetting Father.
It is fitting that the witnesses be those who have entered into this mingling of God and man. That is an important part of what they bear witness to.
The Apostle Paul, who was that one to whom God said, "Why do you persecute Me?" was not one who has this Jesus Christ manifested from within him. That IS his real witness:
"But when it pleased God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and caled me through His grace, TO REVEAL HIS SON IN ME ..." (Galatians 1:16, my emphasis)
It pleased God to reveal God in Jesus Christ. And it pleased God to reveal Jesus Christ in Paul. It pleases Him to reveal Christ not only in Paul but in all who have been reconciled to God and received Jesus Christ into them also.
The witness is not just warning people. It is also living Christ and manifesting Christ.
The second part of the questions seems to imply God's complete knowledge as making any witnessing unnecessary. I am not sure I understand the connection between God's knowledge of all things and the witnessing to His salvation from the saved believers.
It is not an issue of what God knows but of what each man and woman thus witnessed to knows of His love and salvation.
01 Feb 11
2 edits
Originally posted by twhitehead====================================
I know you believe punishment to be 'just recompense' but I am interested in why you believe that. Is it in you opinion:
1. A brute fact. ie something that 'just is' and never will be explained.
2. Something you know to be true, either via intuition, message from God or some other means, but cannot explain.
3. Something you can explain via rational arg ...[text shortened]... f morality other than for the two purposes I have given ie as a deterrent, and preventative.
It is just that many people seem to believe as you do that punishment is a natural and obvious part of justice, but I for one have failed to find a rational argument for why it should be part of a system of morality other than for the two purposes I have given ie as a deterrent, and preventative.
====================================
Punishment is pain. It is always a misery to the one punished.
This pain may be remedial to correct. And in the spiritual life a Christian may not escape the need for remedial punishment for correction simply because he is forgiven.
But eternal punishment from God is not for correcting the damned. It is for vengence. This is retribution from God against His enemies. This is pain, not for correction or adjustment. This is pain for vengence.
"Vengence is Mine. I will repay." (Deut. 32:35)
We might say that the transgression of the law of God He takes personally. Let us say I wait for you in a dark alley. I knock you in the head and steal your wallet.
God takes it personally. Vengence for the wrong belongs to God. And God will repay.
Now there is a vengence which will last for eternity. That is the vengence and associated misery for refusing to be reconciled to God though His Son.
Christ, the Son of God became a CURSE to save us from the curse of the law.
"Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the law, having become a curse on our behalf ..." (Galatians 3:13)
If a man is not impressed with Who it is who gave Himself to become a curse that we might be saved, that one may not see God's just vengence. This man was God become a man. And in His great love He became a curse to redeem us out of the curse of our being inescapably guilty for our iniquities and transgressions against the law of God.
To be a curse is to become entirely vile, worthless, hateful, beyond recovery, and wicked beyond restitution.
God in Christ was made SIN on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. He redeemed us by becoming a curse.
" ... those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" have to them the rendering of "vengence" .
This pain of punishment will not end, will not be terminated by their annhilation into existence, and will not be escapable. The eternally lost will be devoted to vengence, as deserving full everlasting wrath and hatred.
Now God loves the sinner. The works are cursed but not the sinner himself. But in rejecting the Son of God, in eternity it is not only the works that are cursed. The rebel himself is cursed.
We should not desire that which is cursed because we might become cursed along with it:
"Neither shalt you bring an abomination into your house, lest you be a cursed think like it: but you shall utterly detest it, and you shall utterly abhor it, for it is a cursed thing." (See Joshua 6:17-26)
Sin as an alien parasitic thing is attached to fallen man. God has made provision in His Son that we be saved from its guilt and its power. If we refuse His salvation in Christ, in eternity it is not just that attached evil that is cursed. The rebel himself is forever cursed - made entirely vile, worthless, hateful, beyond recovery, wicked.
But now Christ has redeemed us out of the curse by becomming a curse on our behalf under the judgment of God. This is that we may be saved and be united in life with God rather than attached to Satan's everlasting enmity against God.
Where your leader goes you also will go, either to share Christ's glorious eternal future as the Godman, or Satan's miserable eternal torment as the everlasting enemy of God.