02 Feb 11
5 edits
We would not assemble a worldwide group of thieves to determine what the punishment for stealing should be.
We would not assemble a worldwide conference of rapists to decide what the penalty for rape should be.
We would not assemble a worldwide congress of child molesters to determine what the penalty for child molestation is just.
All these people have a vested interest probably in making the penalty of the particular offense either non-existent or rather light.
If God does exist and did become Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins why should we expect that all sinners can be entrusted to determine what is the appropriate penalty for God to meet out to us for not believing in Jesus Christ ?
We sinners all have a vested interest in a favorable penalty or no penalty. It is for God to determine.
02 Feb 11
Originally posted by twhiteheadHow can you possibly argue that hell can or will be touched ,seen and/or heard? it's absurdity... point me in just one direction that helps me understand that please. thanks,B.
Well many here would argue that Hell, will be seen, touched and heard.
There are threads here about Richard Dawkings, the big bang, lying, and more, all of which do not fit your definition of 'spiritual'.
03 Feb 11
1 edit
Originally posted by big bern=====================================
How can you possibly argue that hell can or will be touched ,seen and/or heard? it's absurdity... point me in just one direction that helps me understand that please. thanks,B.
How can you possibly argue that hell can or will be touched ,seen and/or heard? it's absurdity... point me in just one direction that helps me understand that please. thanks,B.
======================
When you THINK "I will lift my arm" can you explain how that thought causes your physical arm to be lifted ?
We have not figured that out yet. I mean how the mind effects the movement of physical matter in our body.
There's a lot we do all day and everyday of which the smartests scientists of chemistry and psychology still cannot explain how they happen.
I am sure the Creator of man knows. And I think God in His word can communicate the unpleasantness of His eternal judgment upon man in terms that communcate.
That we cannot explain how does not mean we should not believe His word. The "lake of fire" is communicated to us in no uncertain terms as a place to be saved from.
We really do not need to know the temperature or how it works.
03 Feb 11
Originally posted by jaywillTell me, why would a god who is omniscient, therefore knows billions of years before the events, all humans born and a certain number will be destined to go to your hell.
[b]=====================================
How can you possibly argue that hell can or will be touched ,seen and/or heard? it's absurdity... point me in just one direction that helps me understand that please. thanks,B.
======================
When you THINK "I will lift my arm" can you explain how that thought causes your physical arm ...[text shortened]... be saved from.
We really do not need to know the temperature or how it works.[/b]
Why would such a god want to do that, to pre-punish someone who will not be born for billions of years yet your god apparently knew all about that person before during and after that person dies. Doesn't that sound slightly rediculous on the face of it? Your god must by definition be insane. I don't think I would want to be associated with an insane capricious god.
03 Feb 11
1 edit
Originally posted by sonhouse=============================
Tell me, why would a god who is omniscient, therefore knows billions of years before the events, all humans born and a certain number will be destined to go to your hell.
Why would such a god want to do that, to pre-punish someone who will not be born for billions of years yet your god apparently knew all about that person before during and after that pers finition be insane. I don't think I would want to be associated with an insane capricious god.
I don't think I would want to be associated with an insane capricious god.
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"Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels ..." (Matt. 25:41)
Your question is not easy. But apparently the eternal fire was prepared not for man but "for the devil and his angels".
The devil and his angels is the one I think you should not want to be associated with.
My God became my Redeemer. And He became a curse for every human that has ever lived that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. God's foreknowledge also ordained the redeeming Lamb from the foundation of the world.
And in Him the saved were predestinated eternal sonship in Jesus Christ.
God could have just created a universe of rocks and stones. They would not give Him any trouble. But He created creatures with a will to decide for His love and reign or against His love and reign.
God apparently had Satan as a reservoir in which to collect all those who use their will to decide against His love and reign.
You apparently go with your leader. If you let Christ be your Lord you will share His glorious eternal destiny and inherit all God's creation and blessings with Christ. If you choose the opposition party you will share the opposition party's miserable eternal destiny. You go with your leader.
Satan doesn't want to go to eternal damnation alone. So he fills your mind with reasons why you too should rather associate with Satan than with Christ Who loved you and gave Himself for you.
The one I don't want to be associated with is the one for whom damnation was prepared - "the devil and his angels". If it was prepared for Satan, why should I follow Satan to that fate ?
God wants me for eternity. I don't know why. But I believe and I accept His loving redemption. His love is greater then can be imagined. But His righteousness and His justice He does not give up for that. Both attributes He will not give up.
03 Feb 11
2 edits
It is the Devil's job to reverse truth.
To make Satan appear as God and to make God appear as Satan.
To reverse the truth.
Slanderers and revilers against God have their minds deceived by this switching of the truth. That is why the Son of God was led to that cross to die on Calvary.
There on Calvary the slanderous and wrong headed hatred of man towards God and the true love of God for man clashed together.
The cross, though used by God to save the sinner, is the evidence also of the deceived human hatred towards God.
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." - Jesus the Son of God
03 Feb 11
Originally posted by jaywillThey would not give Him any trouble
[b]=============================
I don't think I would want to be associated with an insane capricious god.
================================
"Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels ..." (Matt. 25:41)
Your question is not easy. But apparently the eternal fire was prepared ...[text shortened]... and His justice He does not give up for that. Both attributes He will not give up.[/b]
Your God can be troubled by you? Amazing. You seem to humanize your god.
03 Feb 11
1 edit
Originally posted by souverein================================
[b] They would not give Him any trouble
Your God can be troubled by you? Amazing. You seem to humanize your god.[/b]
Your God can be troubled by you? Amazing. You seem to humanize your god.
==================================
Let me make sure we are on the same page here. What I wrote was about we created sentient beings, created with freedom of will, could potentially cause our Creator God trouble.
In fact the introduction of another will besides the will in harmony with the will of God is the source of all the war, conflict, misery, tragedy, and disputation.
You seemed to be speaking of trouble God can cause me. I was speaking of trouble the created beings of God can cause God.
Do you understand now what I said ? Or are you elaborating on the trouble created free wills potentially could cause God, to bring out some other point ?
I am interested in clear commuication here.
04 Feb 11
Originally posted by big bernpsssssstt...
How can you possibly argue that hell can or will be touched ,seen and/or heard? it's absurdity... point me in just one direction that helps me understand that please. thanks,B.
It's that big book over there... you know, the Bible?
You've heard of it, yeah?
04 Feb 11
Originally posted by jaywillAmen.
It is the Devil's job to reverse truth.
To make Satan appear as God and to make God appear as Satan.
To reverse the truth.
Slanderers and revilers against God have their minds deceived by this switching of the truth. That is why the Son of God was led to that cross to die on Calvary.
There on Calvary the slanderous and wrong headed hatred of m ...[text shortened]...
[b]"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." - Jesus the Son of God[/b]
05 Feb 11
Originally posted by twhitehead1. A brute fact. ie something that 'just is' and never will be explained.
I know you believe punishment to be 'just recompense' but I am interested in why you believe that. Is it in you opinion:
1. A brute fact. ie something that 'just is' and never will be explained.
2. Something you know to be true, either via intuition, message from God or some other means, but cannot explain.
3. Something you can explain via rational arg ...[text shortened]... f morality other than for the two purposes I have given ie as a deterrent, and preventative.
It is a brute fact. If for example we were talking about a kingdom among men the
King would setup his laws and through his decrees rewards and punishments would
come from him to his kingdom. The laws of any nation without a king, but setup
by some other means still puts foward laws that bind all that are in the nation to
its laws, so rewards and punishments would follow their laws and decrees. As I
pointed out to you in earlier posts it is no different than working for a living, what
ever the agreement was for a day's pay would be the just recompense due to the
agreement. You think this does not touch upon the topic, since this is the 2nd time
I've spelled this out to you this way, if it does not, please say why you feel that
way.
Kelly
05 Feb 11
1 edit
With a skeptical mind that's alway suspicious
The tales of religion, to me sound fictitious
A good full of good, that will send me to hell
For doing as it made me, just doesn't sit well!
A myriad of books, the Koran, Veda, Bible...
There are n+1 writings, and n of them libel
If there's one thing they hate, their primary beef
It's us ignorant atheists who fail to believe
They have infinite knowledge, and infinite power
But for all their concerns, only one makes them sour
A collection of doubters - a crime it can't quell
When our time here is over, we'll all burn in hell!
😛
05 Feb 11
1 edit
Originally posted by AgergYour not hated for a lack of belief.
With a skeptical mind that's alway suspicious
The tales of religion, to me sound fictitious
A good full of good, that will send me to hell
For doing as it made me, just doesn't sit well!
A myriad of books, the Koran, Veda, Bible...
There are n+1 writings, and n of them libel
If there's one thing they hate, their primary beef
It's us ignorant atheists ...[text shortened]... ubters - a crime it can't quell
When our time here is over, we'll all burn in hell!
😛
Kelly
05 Feb 11
Originally posted by KellyJayA fact can be explained by the way the brute facts and otherwise.
1. A brute fact. ie something that 'just is' and never will be explained.
It is a brute fact. If for example we were talking about a kingdom among men the
King would setup his laws and through his decrees rewards and punishments would
come from him to his kingdom. The laws of any nation without a king, but setup
by some other means still puts foward l ...[text shortened]... spelled this out to you this way, if it does not, please say why you feel that
way.
Kelly
Kelly