08 Jul 08
4 edits
Originally posted by vistesdVistesd,
This might be unfair, but—
Take it slow. (You’re not slow!) Consider “I am that I am” and YHVH as simply the third-person variant of eheyeh (“I-am” ) and Jesus “I-am” statements (especially in John).
Consider the possibility (not outside the scope of Lutheran theology, I think) that Jesus’ claims are unique, but not exclusive. As a hint, I ...[text shortened]... or aren’t you? Who do you think you are?
Take your time. These are not “debate” questions.
Your quotes from Gregory are interesting. Of course the Gospel of John and the epistles of Paul and Peter say pretty much the same thing.
Why didn't you simply go to John 14 about the "Father's house" being composed of "many abodes?"
The church is the extension of "God manifest in the flesh".
08 Jul 08
Originally posted by PinkFloydDid you read my post above?
Jesus said "I and the Father are One." and "He who has seen me has seen the Father." When asked if He was the Son of God, He answered in the affirmative. Can one get more divine than that?
Jesus said "I and the Father are One."
Yes he didn't mean that he is divine like the father, he just ment the no one can take his sheeps from him like no one can take sheeps from hi father, you just take it out of context.
"He who has seen me has seen the Father." When asked if He was the Son of God, He answered in the affirmative.
First, he did answer this when asked if he was the son of GOD, he answered this when he was asked to show the Father by Philip:
(king James Version)(John)(Jn-43-8)(Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.)
(king James Version)(John)(Jn-43-9)(Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?)[/b]
So I think you need to make sure of your information before posting.
Secondly: I think you know that the Bible say "no one can see GOD and live",
[i](KJV)(Exodus)(Ex-33-20)(And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.)
didn't you ask yourself, if Juses realy refering to his divinity, why his students didn't die.
The Greek word for see in John 43:9, can also be translated as "Know", which means that the vesre can be translated to be:
"he that hath known me hath known the Father", and that is true, because the message of the prophet is to make us know GOD. We know GOD through prophets, and if we know the prophets we will know GOD.
08 Jul 08
Originally posted by jaywillI suspect you're reading John 14 at a deeper level than I have...
Vistesd,
Your quotes from Gregory are interesting. Of course the Gospel of John and the epistles of Paul and Peter say pretty much the same thing.
Why didn't you simply go to John 14 about the [b]"Father's house" being composed of "many abodes?"
The church is the extension of "God manifest in the flesh".[/b]
08 Jul 08
Originally posted by clearlightOr, they get caught by their maps, rather than the territory. Or, to mix metaphors a bit, focusing on the particular colors refracted through the prism of existential perspective, forgetting the—clear light. 🙂
People believe what they want to believe - belief is less about intellectual reasoning and more about emotion - faith is emotion - that is why people believe the nonsense they believe - they are emotionally attached to their belief.
08 Jul 08
Originally posted by ahosyneyFirst, it's rude to tell people when they should and should not post. You could use a lesson in tact and courtesy.
Did you read my post above?
[b]Jesus said "I and the Father are One."
Yes he didn't mean that he is divine like the father, he just ment the no one can take his sheeps from him like no one can take sheeps from hi father, you just take it out of context.
[b]"He who has seen me has seen the Father." When asked if He was the Son of God, He answe ...[text shortened]... 33-20)(And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.)[/i]
Second, God said that Moses saw Him face to face. Adam and Eve "walked" with God--do you think He wore a hood? We can pull passages on each other in contradiction all day. The bottom line is Jesus came to earth to bridge whatever divide existed between man and God. Jesus was/is God, and people saw him and did not drop dead immediately.
08 Jul 08
Originally posted by PinkFloydFirst, it's rude to tell people when they should and should not post. You could use a lesson in tact and courtesy.
First, it's rude to tell people when they should and should not post. You could use a lesson in tact and courtesy.
Second, God said that Moses saw Him face to face. Adam and Eve "walked" with God--do you think He wore a hood? We can pull passages on each other in contradiction all day. The bottom line is Jesus came to earth to bridge whatever divide ...[text shortened]... between man and God. Jesus was/is God, and people saw him and did not drop dead immediately.
I didn't mean to be rude, and if you felt that I apologize, but your statment looks rude to me too. I only wanted to point out that your statement was not correct. Don't you agree?
Second, God said that Moses saw Him face to face. Adam and Eve "walked" with God--do you think He wore a hood? We can pull passages on each other in contradiction all day.
I didn't talk about contradiction. My post say nothing about contradiction. If you see this as a contradiction then it is your problem. How to GOD say that no one can see him and live, and in other places GOD talks about people who did see him? Both can't be true..
The bottom line is Jesus came to earth to bridge whatever divide existed between man and God. Jesus was/is God, and people saw him and did not drop dead immediately.
That is a claim you need to prove. GOD said he is not a man, and you insist that Jesus the man is GOD.
I know where Jesus said that he is a man and prophet, and the father, is the only true GOD. But I don't know where he said that he is GOD.
08 Jul 08
Originally posted by ahosyneyIt doesn't really matter whether he said he was or not. One thing we know he did say was that he will judge us all.
Did you read my post above?
[b]Jesus said "I and the Father are One."
Yes he didn't mean that he is divine like the father, he just ment the no one can take his sheeps from him like no one can take sheeps from hi father, you just take it out of context.
"He who has seen me has seen the Father." When asked if He was the Son of God, He answe ...[text shortened]... ow GOD. We know GOD through prophets, and if we know the prophets we will know GOD.
Therefore all we need to ask is how this is possible. Jesus must be able to know everything about everybody otherwise a fair judgement is not possible. When you think about what he said (ie- coming back at the end of time to judge all men) it's quite astonishing really. What human being would dare to say such things???
You are debating a technicality and missing the big picture.
08 Jul 08
Originally posted by ahosyneyBut I don't know where he said that he is GOD. --abosyney---
[b]First, it's rude to tell people when they should and should not post. You could use a lesson in tact and courtesy.
I didn't mean to be rude, and if you felt that I apologize, but your statment looks rude to me too. I only wanted to point out that your statement was not correct. Don't you agree?
Second, God said that Moses saw Him face to fa ...[text shortened]... et, and the father, is the only true GOD. But I don't know where he said that he is GOD.
"Before Abraham was - I AM!" - Jews called Jehovah "the great I am"
08 Jul 08
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeister"Before Abraham was - I AM!" - Jews called Jehovah "the great I am"
But I don't know where he said that he is GOD. --abosyney---
"Before Abraham was - I AM!" - Jews called Jehovah "the great I am"
At the same moment I read your post, I was listening to a Jewish rabbi who was talking about this specific point, and guess what he said?? Jews never called Jehovah "The great I am"...
08 Jul 08
Originally posted by ahosyneyYes, He did mean He is divine like the Father. here is where we agree to disagree.
[b]First, it's rude to tell people when they should and should not post. You could use a lesson in tact and courtesy.
I didn't mean to be rude, and if you felt that I apologize, but your statment looks rude to me too. I only wanted to point out that your statement was not correct. Don't you agree?
Second, God said that Moses saw Him face to fa ...[text shortened]... et, and the father, is the only true GOD. But I don't know where he said that he is GOD.
08 Jul 08
Originally posted by ahosyneyWell of course he would say that wouldn't he?
[b]"Before Abraham was - I AM!" - Jews called Jehovah "the great I am"
At the same moment I read your post, I was listening to a Jewish rabbi who was talking about this specific point, and guess what he said?? Jews never called Jehovah "The great I am"...[/b]
In any case , look at what happens to Jesus after he says this -- he gets stones thrown at him obviously because he has said something so shocking and blasphemous. It's clear that the Jews he was speaking to knew what he was saying and jesus must have known what he was saying too. He was a Jew himself well versed in tradition.
You still haven't answered how someone who was not co-substantial and co-equal with God could possibly presume to claim to judge all men at the end of time. This claim on it's own qualifies Jesus as the Son of God and that very claim is clear and undisputable.
Jesus didn't specifically say he was the Son of God because he was watching and waiting to see how his Father was going to reveal this truth to those around him via the Spirit. This has not happened to you yet.
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09 Jul 08
As an aside, it should be noted that Jesus was not the only one to either claim the right or ability to judge, or to actually do it. There are some OT accounts of angels judging good or evil, or debating whether a person should be put to death, as it were. I can only assume that they have been given authority by God to act on behalf of God.
My only point would be that claiming to judge the righteous and unrighteous in and of itself does not mean that Jesus is claiming his is divine on equal footing with God. It's a small but important idea to note.
09 Jul 08
Somehow all this got off track.
I saw someone write: "This claim on it's own qualifies Jesus as the Son of God and that very claim is clear and undisputable."
OK, I am hereby claiming that I am infallible by Divine Right -- I have spoken personally with God and I've been anointed to carry out his Plan.
Now, then, this is clearly undisputable because God said so.