will of god v free will

Originally posted by Omnislash
While I think it good and well you are 'putting the truth behind the myth up for debate', I require you to address my last statement directly if you wish to debate the matter.

My understanding of your position is that God can not exist as both creator and judge and maintain moral perfection. Am I correct in my understanding?

Additionally, it is dif ...[text shortened]... u identify God with? If not, then please say so plainly so I might understand your perception.

i am afraid, my friend, that it was not my perception of god i was debating.It was the perception of danielpasono.

As for my own position, it is that god by definition, is creator, judge, jury, and executioner. There is nothing we can do to change that, except do good or bad and live with the moral consequences. our brain deals with conflicting messages as to what good and bad are, and bad people affect our judgement whether we like it or not.

we are all pawns.


does any of that make sense? i sure hope so

Originally posted by huckleberryhound
i am afraid, my friend, that it was not my perception of god i was debating.It was the perception of danielpasono.

As for my own position, it is that god by definition, is creator, judge, jury, and executioner. There is nothing we can do to change that, except do good or bad and live with the moral consequences. our brain deals with conflicting ...[text shortened]... whether we like it or not.

we are all pawns.


does any of that make sense? i sure hope so

Sure, that makes sense. I still fail to understand your original response to him, but so be it.

Originally posted by huckleberryhound
so you are saying god made a mistake in our design? or are you saying that the misery of war was taken into account at the design stage? What love for the dead who were victims of free will? does god have blood no his hands, or does he blame his bad planning on the free will of others?

There was no mistake in the design. Free will is a 2-edged sword.
Answer me this. If you were to have 5 children and you knew that the first was going be a doctor, the 2nd and 3rd were to be murderers, the 4th would cure world hunger and the 5th would cure AIDS, how many children would you have?
Yes, there is evil in the world, but there is also good. It's not bad planning, it's the expected outcome.
As far as love for the dead goes, one has to die before one can be with God. Death isn't the automatically bad thing you assume it to be.
You know who Jesus is. And you know the consequences of your actions. The choice of heaven or hell after you die is up to you. It's within your control. And remember, choosing not to choose is still making a choice.

Daniel

Originally posted by huckleberryhound
If god has a plan for every part of our lifes, and what happens is the will of god, what is the point of free will? is this not like bieng given a bicycle to cross the atlantic ocean?

please discuss

What free will ???

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=35999

Originally posted by DanielPasono
There was no mistake in the design. Free will is a 2-edged sword.
Answer me this. If you were to have 5 children and you knew that the first was going be a doctor, the 2nd and 3rd were to be murderers, the 4th would cure world hunger and the 5th would cure AIDS, how many children would you have?
Yes, there is evil in the world, but there is also good. ...[text shortened]... ithin your control. And remember, choosing not to choose is still making a choice.

Daniel

ok. why did god make evil?

Originally posted by huckleberryhound
ok. why did god make evil?

Valentinus had a different account of good and evil:
http://www.gnosis.org/valentinus.htm

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Valentinus had a different account of good and evil:
http://www.gnosis.org/valentinus.htm

maybe i should reword the question. Why allow the ability to commit evil to be put in your creation, then punnish the creation.

cause and effect.

create a flawed world. create flaws in man, punnish him for his choices.

please discuss

Originally posted by huckleberryhound
ok. why did god make evil?

What evil are you referencing? I know of no evil that God Himself made.
Even Satan himself was made an angel. God didn't create him evil. That's a choice Satan made of his own free will.

Daniel

Originally posted by huckleberryhound
maybe i should reword the question. Why allow the ability to commit evil to be put in your creation, then punnish the creation.

cause and effect.

create a flawed world. create flaws in man, punnish him for his choices.

please discuss

It's quite simple, really.
God created us to share His love with us and our love with Him.
In order for love to be real, one must have the choice not to love. It I don't have that choice, then I'm a robot. So, since I must be allowed to choose, I must have free will. And free will allows the choice of evil to be made.
The punishment you speak of isn't something applied by God, it's simply the consequences of doing evil. It's part of the rules of how the place was built. God has given us and out, via Jesus, of the consequences of our own actions, and we still have our free will so we can choose to accept Jesus' offer or not. God wished that all of us would accept Jesus' offer and avoid hell, but He loves us enough to allow us to make our own choice on the matter.

Daniel

Originally posted by DragonFriend
It's quite simple, really.
God created us to share His love with us and our love with Him.
In order for love to be real, one must have the choice not to love. It I don't have that choice, then I'm a robot. So, since I must be allowed to choose, I must have free will. And free will allows the choice of evil to be made.
The punishment you speak of isn' ...[text shortened]... hell, but He loves us enough to allow us to make our own choice on the matter.

Daniel

then who made angels? are you suggesting there is a greater power afoot? if god didnt make them, who did?

why does circular reasoning take the blame for evil away from god all the time? if god gave us the ability do do evil, he is the creator of that evil, as evil was not there before he created free will.
The suffering of others i was reffering to was not the suffering of the man who commits evil, but that of the victims of evil.If the creation of millions of people suffering a lifetime of tyrany. . . like cambodia for instance. . . is the consequence of enjoying gods love, god is to blame. the only other explanation is that there is a greater power at work, one that even your god cannot/will not do anything about

Originally posted by huckleberryhound
then who made angels? are you suggesting there is a greater power afoot? if god didnt make them, who did?

why does circular reasoning take the blame for evil away from god all the time? if god gave us the ability do do evil, he is the creator of that evil, as evil was not there before he created free will.
The suffering of others i was refferi ...[text shortened]... that there is a greater power at work, one that even your god cannot/will not do anything about

God made the angels, and they are good.
Your argument is akin to saying that the dairy only sells spoiled milk. It may have started out drinkable, but even with the best care it will go bad. So does the dairy sell spoiled mike? Of course not. It "creates" a good product. What happens to it after that is out of their hands.
God creates good people, but He loves us enough to give us free will. If we use our free will to go bad, that's our choice. But God no more made me go bad than the dairy made the milk spoil.
This dairy example isn't circular reasoning, its a sequence of events. The same is true with humans. Look at how trusting young children are. They have to learn not to trust everyone. Look how honest young children are. They have to learn to lie. In short, we have to learn to be evil because we are created good.
In a way I guess you could say there is a greater power at work than God, since God isn't willing to restrain free will, we get to do with it what we want, whether God likes it or not. Of course, we only hurt ourselves in the process.

DF

Originally posted by DragonFriend
God made the angels, and they are good.
Your argument is akin to saying that the dairy only sells spoiled milk. It may have started out drinkable, but even with the best care it will go bad. So does the dairy sell spoiled mike? Of course not. It "creates" a good product. What happens to it after that is out of their hands.
God creates good people, bu ...[text shortened]... want, whether God likes it or not. Of course, we only hurt ourselves in the process.

DF

No.
We hurt others.
As for God not willing to do anything about it - the biblical god anyway - he turned soddom to salt, he drowned an army of Egyptians so the Jewish slaves could get to Isreal, and there was one occassion where, if my memory serves me correct, he commited genacide. Did he not drown all the people in the world apart from 9 families, only to then allow them to interbreed.

It is my proposal that as creator, not only should God take the blame for the "souring of his milk", he should stand co-accused of the suffering of those his despot "milk cartons" have maimed, raped, and killed over the past few thousand years (the post drowning of a nation years).
Also, it would seem evil to me to punnish a man for murder by an eternity ih hell, when the judge has commited similar offences.


One more question to consider. . . If a man is thrown into starvation by one of gods "cartons of souring milk", and to relieve this starvation, does he go to hell, or is God somewhat guilty of putting him in that position in the first place?

Originally posted by huckleberryhound
maybe i should reword the question. Why allow the ability to commit evil to be put in your creation, then punnish the creation.

cause and effect.

create a flawed world. create flaws in man, punnish him for his choices.

please discuss

This is actually the crux of the whole issue, in two-part form.
Satan's contention is, man (or, the creature) can be 'good' without God. He has been attempting to show this as true for all of human history, and will have his solo shot on the big stage sometime in the future.
God showed this to be patently untrue, via the Garden.
Satan's further contention is that God has made a flawed thing to begin with, and cannot possibly hold the thing accountable, as the thing could not possibly obey God.
God showed this to be patently untrue, also via a Garden.
What Jesus Christ did on this planet, was accomplished utilizing God's power, the same power available to man today. He did not use His power to live life as a man, He used the power available for every believer, through the Holy Spirit. He always provides whatever His character demands.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
This is actually the crux of the whole issue, in two-part form.
Satan's contention is, man (or, the creature) can be 'good' without God. He has been attempting to show this as true for all of human history, and will have his solo shot on the big stage sometime in the future.
God showed this to be patently untrue, via the Garden.
Satan's further content ...[text shortened]... very believer, through the Holy Spirit. He always provides whatever His character demands.

god made the devil. . Q.E.D

Originally posted by huckleberryhound
It is my proposal that as creator, not only should God take the blame for the "souring of his milk", he should stand co-accused of the suffering of those his despot "milk cartons" have maimed, raped, and killed over the past few thousand years

Also, it would seem evil to me to punnish a man for murder by an eternity ih hell, when the judge has c ...[text shortened]... go to hell, or is God somewhat guilty of putting him in that position in the first place?

According to the logic here, if I had a 40 year old child that comitted murder, I should be thrown in prison along with him. Does that seem fair? Or is there some point where the child becomes responsible for his own actions.

God doesn't punnish. Hell is simply the consequences of our own actions. It's not something that God does to us, it's something we do to ourselves. Did the dairy do something to the milk when it spoils? No, it's just a consequence of leaving it out.

When we die we get judged by the life we led, not by what others did to us. We can not control others, but we always have the opportunity to control ourselves. So the outcome of the judgement is up to us.

You seem to want to blame God for all the bad things in the world. While He did create the world, He has also given it free reign. It is no more fair to blame the actions of bad people on God than it is to imprison the parents of a 40 year old murderer.

DF