will of god v free will

Originally posted by huckleberryhound
ok. why did god make evil?

Huck, this has been covered before, so I'll just post a link...

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=29922

Originally posted by DanielPasono
There was no mistake in the design. Free will is a 2-edged sword.
Answer me this. If you were to have 5 children and you knew that the first was going be a doctor, the 2nd and 3rd were to be murderers, the 4th would cure world hunger and the 5th would cure AIDS, how many children would you have?
Yes, there is evil in the world, but there is also good. ...[text shortened]... ithin your control. And remember, choosing not to choose is still making a choice.

Daniel

you answered your own question; you would have 5 children. a doctor, 2 murderers, a curer of world hunger and a curer of AIDS.
i thought that god was supposed to be all around. therefore, you would be with it all the time, as opposed to only after you die.
what are you going to do if you die and there is no god?

Originally posted by i am scientists

what are you going to do if you die and there is no god?

Good question.
The answer is: nothing. I won't exist.

That's what I don't understand. I see why Christians talk about this stuff, we're trying to let people know that, by default, our souls are going to hell but we can change that if we want to.

Why are the skeptics talking? What do they have to gain? Why do they care if I "waste my time" with God or not?

DF

Originally posted by huckleberryhound
god made the devil. . Q.E.D

According to Scripture, everything was created by God, for His good purpose. Including evil, including good, including Satan, including you, me and a dog named Boo.
What point did you need demonstrated?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
According to Scripture, everything was created by God, for His good purpose. Including evil, including good, including Satan, including you, me and a dog named Boo.
What point did you need demonstrated?

I don't need anything demonstrated, perhaps i should explain.

My original post was the following question

If everything that happens is the will of god, then why did he give us free will, is this not like giving someone a bicycle to cross an ocean? That was off the top of my head, i didn't look back at the post, so if the wording is different i apologise.

the answer was that he gave us free will in order to "share his love", and that if we didn't have free will we would be like "robots". you can read the thread at your leasure. . . if you want to .

so the question about the 40 year old commiting murder should be "if i built a robot, and 40 years later it commited murder, should the creator be guilty?".

I have to admit that when i posted this thread at first i did not take in to account one, now blindingly obvious thing. . . Posting a thread questioning god on a spirituality forum is a bit like going to a "white sox" forum and asking why the "world series" is called the "world series" when only americans enter.

I wish to explain something.
I just recently started a clan called "the hellfire club" (feel free to google). Can you guess who were the first two clans to challenge me were? Well lets just say that one of them was the "lovers of christ".
it is my belief that i was challenged because the name had satanic undertones, and that amused me no end.

I don't have anything against your religeon,and i apologise if i have offended anyone, what you believe is your business, and it is not for me to question.I may not agree with your opinion, but i would fight for your right to have it.

So let the good be good
The bad be bad
and the ugly be politicians
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dont do drugs.

Huck
🙂

Originally posted by huckleberryhound
so the question about the 40 year old commiting murder should be "if i built a robot, and 40 years later it commited murder, should the creator be guilty?".

That would depend. Can the robot change it's own programming?
If not, then it can only do what it was programmed to do and it's programming must allow it to murder (or another human changed it from its original code) and therefore, yes, the creator should go to prison.
If yes, then it has a form of free will and the creator should not be held responsible (assuming that allowing murder wasn't in the original code).

The point I'm trying to make is that there comes a point where a child becomes responsible for its own actions. The human race reached that point long long ago. So you can blame the evils of the world on God if you like, it's just not just to do so.

DF

Originally posted by huckleberryhound
I don't need anything demonstrated, perhaps i should explain.

My original post was the following question

If everything that happens is the will of god, then why did he give us free will, is this not like giving someone a bicycle to cross an ocean? That was off the top of my head, i didn't look back at the post, so if the wording is different ...[text shortened]... bad
and the ugly be politicians
.
.
.
.
.
dont do drugs.

Huck
🙂

Did you even bother going through my link, Huck?

Originally posted by Halitose
Did you even bother going through my link, Huck?

seriously dude, do you expect me to read 6 pages of thread?



ok. read your opening post.half a story. i'll try to keep this short



GOD CREATED EVIL

Originally posted by DragonFriend
That would depend. Can the robot change it's own programming?
If not, then it can only do what it was programmed to do and it's programming must allow it to murder (or another human changed it from its original code) and therefore, yes, the creator should go to prison.
If yes, then it has a form of free will and the creator should not be held responsi ...[text shortened]... you can blame the evils of the world on God if you like, it's just not just to do so.

DF

ok. that was me trying to leave this on a fair note, not wanting to insult christians to make my point.


God made every thing, right?
God gave man free will in order to share his love, right?
God then proceeds to invent a hell to punnish man for thinking that his love is not all its cracked up to be.


god made the rules
god made the playing field
god made it possible for the whole thing to go tits up.



If adam ate the apple, and cane killed abel, then why didnt gods realise he'd made a total balls up of the whole "man" thing?

The devil was a christian creation, meant to take the blame off of god for all the ills in the world.

Originally posted by huckleberryhound
seriously dude, do you expect me to read 6 pages of thread?



ok. read your opening post.half a story. i'll try to keep this short



GOD CREATED EVIL

seriously dude, do you expect me to read 6 pages of thread?

Then it is my suspicion that you don't really have any intention of fully understanding the concept.

GOD CREATED EVIL

God created the possibility of evil by allowing for free will. Having free moral agents doesn't necessarily imply evil -- mankind made it a reality. Who is guilty: the serial-murderer or his/her parent who allowed for the possibility of them being alive?

Originally posted by huckleberryhound

As long as you're seeking knowledge, you're not insulting.

God then proceeds to invent a hell to punnish man for thinking that his love is not all its cracked up to be.
Hell was actually created for Satan and his demons, not mankind.

If adam ate the apple, and cane killed abel, then why didnt gods realise he'd made a total balls up of the whole "man" thing?

Look at it from God's point of view. Some people will be good and they will end up sharing in God's love. Some people will be bad they will end up destroyed. In the end, God will get exactly what He wanted, people to share His love with.
The only question is, do you want to one of the people sharing in God's love, or not. The choice is up to you. But to say that God messed up this "man" thing is not accurate. His plan gives Him exactly what He wants in the end.

DF

Originally posted by DragonFriend
God no more made me go bad than the dairy made the milk spoil.

If God made the milk, then he also made the bacteria in the milk that causes it to go bad, so the question is why didn’t God make the milk without the bacteria? Why didn’t God make humans without the desire to do evil?

Originally posted by The Chess Express
If God made the milk, then he also made the bacteria in the milk that causes it to go bad, so the question is why didn’t God make the milk without the bacteria? Why didn’t God make humans without the desire to do evil?

OH DUDE! YOU'RE THE FIRST GUY TO GET MY POINT HALLELUJAH!!!

You'd think that God, being the intelligent chap he obviously is (some would say that the eyeball is obvious proof of his existance), that when eve ate the apple he might have thought to himself "hang on a minute! we might have a problem here".

Instead he bannished the both of them out of the garden of eden, and punnished the lot of us from then to now for fun of it! .......pant pant.

I🙂

Originally posted by Halitose
[b]seriously dude, do you expect me to read 6 pages of thread?

Then it is my suspicion that you don't really have any intention of fully understanding the concept.

GOD CREATED EVIL

God created the possibility of evil by allowing for free will. Having free moral agents doesn't necessarily imply evil -- mankind made it a reality. Who is ...[text shortened]... ty: the serial-murderer or his/her parent who allowed for the possibility of them being alive?[/b]

no. . . i just don't have any intention of trawling through your old threads. explain yourself here. if you can without rehashing whats already been said

Originally posted by huckleberryhound
If god has a plan for every part of our lifes, and what happens is the will of god, what is the point of free will? is this not like bieng given a bicycle to cross the atlantic ocean?

please discuss

Has anyone considered this:

Say the creation (if created by a God) is more of a tool. It's used by God in some way; a programmed machine if you will. (Of course, this is a very trivial comparison, which I've made before, but bare with me on the tool part.)

God creates an animal. Right? It's feeding on plants, procreates and has a generally good time. Now, God sees the problem with this. Unless the plants can grow to full size again within a day, the world will have no plants left. So, he creates the predator. The predator kills and eats the planteater. Which is all well. But, then the predator also procreates and... well, you get the idea.

So, it's all about balance. If God exists, it may very well be that we are not as special as we think. We're just part of a great machinery, and God has to "waste" some of us from time to time to keep things going. Our "free will" that we supposedly have is not much more than the programmed ability to adjust ourselves to changing conditions. We usually want what we need (although some would say the opposite, based on the misconception that we often don't know what's best for us). And what we need is usually directly in relation to our survival in nature, which is part of creation; the machine.

So, God gave us free will, not to question nor praise his/her work, but to function properly in this little creation of his/hers. Honestly, if (s)he exists, I seriously doubt (s)he cares for us as individuals, but rather considers the number of humans on this planet and does what's necessary to maintain the machinery.

Which would explain wars and everything bad that we do to ourselfs. Satan and the Almighty is one and the same. We call him/her Satan when (s)he makes us hate and kill each other (for the machine to work properly), and we call him/her the good and benevolent God when (s)he allows for beauty in our lifes.

Personally, I think (s)he could have crafted us without feelings, but there's probably a good reason for that too.

Life's great! Enjoy it! And don't ponder too much. Just enough to keep you entertained. That's my philosophy.

(Of course, I don't believe in God, but nonetheless I enjoy these discussions.)