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Originally posted by @freakykbhFeel free to state your position on the doctrine of eternal suffering as soon as you find your balls.
Why are you arguing against what you already know?
Your OP was in error.
It is not a small matter.
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeGod loves DOERS.
I'd even go a step further than that.
Take for example my (hypothetical) elderly neighbour, a woman who, although not perfect, has spent her life caring for others and is genuinely loving and kind. She is however a non-believer, perhaps having suffered much in her life and unable to reconcile this with the notion of an an omnibenevolent deity. - ...[text shortened]... h his righteousness. She simply would have to burn to keep Him righteous.
Awful, just awful.
God despises TALKERS.
If there is in fact eternal torment it will be for talkers and mouth worshippers
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Originally posted by @divegeesterThe case against your teaching of eternal suffering is one of it violating common morality,
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The judgment of God is not common. It is ultimate.
We cannot really compare typical judgment in a human court to that which God Almighty with His omniscience is about.
God's judgment is infallible.
That is not "common".
common justice, common sense and yes, the righteousness and mercy of God as laid out throughout the Bible and withstanding your symbolisms and parables.
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The human laws of common justice are tempered for the sake that humans are not infallible.
It should be evident that Christ and God are on a whole different plane of omniscience and discernment. With humans there is error. With God oversight is impossible.
"And there is no creature that is not manifest before Him, but all things are naked and laid bare to the eyes of Him to whom we are to give our account." (Heb. 4:13)
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01 Jan 18
2 edits
Christ knew the great need for us to be redeemed. That is why in love He drank the cup His being judged by God on our behalf. He knew He had to drink this awful cup of wrath against our sins. He agonized in prayer and obedience in the garden of Gethsemane.
If we do not know in what danger our souls were because of God's judgment, thankfully, the Savior did.
"Again, going away a second time, He prayed, saying, My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done. And coming again He found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy.
And leaving them, He went away again and prayed a third time, saying the same word again." (Matt. 26:42-44)
He agonized to be obedient unto death to accomplish redemption for us. He prayed in such fervency that his sweat became as drops of blood - extreme consternation.
If man takes lightly his need to be justified before God, Christ did not take it lightly. He poured out His soul unto death to make intercession for the sinner before God.
"Because He poured out His life unto death and was numbered with the transgressors, Yet He alone bore the sin of many and interceded for the transgressor." (Isaiah 53:12b)
We are dealing with a divine and uncommon judgment.
We required an uncommon advocacy and absolution.
In some senses comparison with human court is applicable, but not in all senses.
01 Jan 18
Originally posted by @freakykbhJesus said no such thing. You made it all up.
Please tell me the chord I struck which you find in error.
Also your doctrine about souls living for ever is also unbiblical and made up.
If there was proof that these things are in the bible you would have produced them instead of your irrelevant waffling.
Originally posted by @rajk999Ecclesiastes 12:7
Jesus said no such thing. You made it all up.
Also your doctrine about souls living for ever is also unbiblical and made up.
If there was proof that these things are in the bible you would have produced them instead of your irrelevant waffling.
John 11:25,26
Matthew 22:31,32
John 5:28,29
Matthew 10:28
Revelation 6:9
Revelation 2:11
Waffles are great for breakfast.
Time to wake up.
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01 Jan 18
3 edits
In the Bible there is no Plato like philosophy put forth systematically about the eternality of the soul. However, it is evident that the immaterial part of man is not non-existent when his physical life dies.
Systematically no formal teaching of eternal souls is taught.
But the evidence in many cases reveal physical death is not complete non-existence.
Look at Jesus Himself. He died and in Hades announced the victory of His death to some of the spirits confined there.
" Christ ... on the one hand being put to death in the flesh, but on the other, made alive in the Spirit;
In which also He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, who had formerly disobeyed when the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared; ... " (See 1 Pet. 3:18-20)
The main point here is this - in the realm of death, Jesus Christ was not non-existent. He was actively proclaiming His victory over some beings in that realm of Hades, that sphere of the dead.
Originally posted by @freakykbhMore waffle and hot air.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
John 11:25,26
Matthew 22:31,32
John 5:28,29
Matthew 10:28
Revelation 6:9
Revelation 2:11
Waffles are great for breakfast.
Time to wake up.
If any of those passages contained proof of what you are saying you would surely have quoted the contents of the passage.
The fact is that none of them contain any support for your doctrine.
01 Jan 18
Originally posted by @sonshipWaffle and hot air ... both you and Freaky are cut from the same cloth.
In the Bible there is no Plato like philosophy put forth systematically about the eternality of the soul. However, it is evident that the immaterial part of man is not non-existent when his physical life dies.
Systematically no formal teaching of eternal souls is taught.
But the evidence in many cases reveal physical death is not complete non-existence ...[text shortened]... tively proclaiming His victory over some beings in that realm of Hades, that sphere of the dead.
There is nothing in the bible about eternal souls,
On the contrary it clearly says God can destroy souls.
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeTake for example my (hypothetical) elderly neighbour...
I'd even go a step further than that.
Take for example my (hypothetical) elderly neighbour, a woman who, although not perfect, has spent her life caring for others and is genuinely loving and kind. She is however a non-believer, perhaps having suffered much in her life and unable to reconcile this with the notion of an an omnibenevolent deity. - ...[text shortened]... h his righteousness. She simply would have to burn to keep Him righteous.
Awful, just awful.
I'm encouraged to see others who, like me, consider themselves above grade in imagination and both problem-solving and puzzle-creating.
While it is fanciful to consider any number of scenarios in which God's perfection is challenged, at the end of the day, He actually can make a rock bigger than He can pick up.
As proof, look not to your hypothetical elderly neighbor (God cannot bless her non-existent soul), but inward: to your own existent soul (but yours? He is literally tapping His foot in impatience to overflow your being).
You exist; she doesn't.
You make choices; she can't.
You are the rock bigger than God Himself can lift.
Pretty cool, huh.
...although not perfect...
According to your scale, presumably?
...has spent her life caring for others and is genuinely loving and kind...
Again, according to your scale of values.
Loving, kind: these are valuable in your pretend world, or are they transcendent and do they achieve currency in the real world, too?
...perhaps having suffered much in her life and unable to reconcile this with the notion of an an omnibenevolent deity.
Your imagination is waning.
It seems you do could better than to pin her rejection of God on something more compelling than an intellectual blindness.
How can a person hold both love and kindness in their heart when it is so full of self-pity and self-absorption?
I detect a glitch in her matrix.
...God would do the same to this kind and loving neighbour, simply because she didn't believe in him...
Since you conjured up the scenario, I suppose it stands to reason that you would also extend it to color the entire landscape.
In the real world, no one is separated from God as a result of a lack of belief in Him.
Your extensive background in theology contrasts this coloring from your palette, as you know the Bible teaches...
thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble
However, even were we to adjust your puzzle, nip and tuck here and there to satisfy the known parameters, your knot quickly unravels.
Change "non-believer" to "rejects God's gift on account of an assessment of incompatible aspects of character and/or behavior," and instead of dealing with 'innocent' ignorance, we're confronted with informed value analysis, the result of which allegedly finds God wanting.
That's the problem with our cleverness, or at least, the efforts thereof: we want so desperately to arrive at a particular conclusion, we work the problem backwards to make one fit.
If we can make even one fit, we know something is rotten in Denmark.
You think you found one, even if only in your head: a scenario in which God's judgment is suspect.
What does that make you, goad, if not God Himself?
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The feelings then of God the Judge against the wicked, and especially against the [willful] transgressors of His laws are those of just displeasure and hatred. Loving righteousness supremely, He cannot but hate evil with a like hatred, an infinite displeasure.- Robert Govette
Because we are warped we often do not see God's love for righteousness and His hatred of unrighteousness are equally strong.
This displeasure then will be felt without end by the unforgiven. God means to manifest as soon as this day of mercy is over, the awfulness of His justice against the wicked; "on every soul of man that doeth evil :" Rom, ii,7-9. As salvation of the saved is to display His power for good, so terrible doom of the guilty is to discover His power to inflict misery on His foes : Rom. ix, 22,23.- Robert Govette
God's love was seen in Him coming to bare our sins that the dept be paid and we be justified and forgiven.
The forgiveness of sins even - forasmuch as it was necessary that His Beloved Son, in spite of His spotless obedience should suffer unto death - is an indisputable proof of God's justice. His grace could not reign till atonement, adequate and infinite, had been made : Rom. v,21.
God therefore is to be feared, even by believers, It is a first lesson of wisdom : Luke xii,4,5 ; Matt. x, 28 ; v, 27-30; Ps. lxxvi, 7.
- Robert Govette
from Eternal Suffering of the Wicked and Hades, pg 168, Schoettle Publishsing. Co. Inc.
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Such a positive and central note is needed.
But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of the faith which we proclaim.
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation.
For Scripture says, "Everyone who believes on Him shall not be put to shame." (Rom. 10:8-11)
Originally posted by @rajk999In the same order as quoted:
More waffle and hot air.
If any of those passages contained proof of what you are saying you would surely have quoted the contents of the passage.
The fact is that none of them contain any support for your doctrine.
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Jesus said unto her,
I am the resurrection, and the life:
he that believeth in me,
though he were dead,
yet shall he live:
But as touching the resurrection of the dead,
have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God,
saying
I am the God of Abraham,
and the God of Isaac,
and the God of Jacob?
God is not the God of the dead,
but of the living.
Marvel not at this:
for the hour is coming,
in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth;
they that have done good,
unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil,
unto the resurrection of damnation.
And fear not them which kill the body,
but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
And when he had opened the fifth seal,
I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,
and for the testimony which they held:
He that hath an ear,
let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
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Originally posted by @freakykbhMy neighbour is hypothetical sir, but she represents millions of very real souls who Sonship's God has apparently cast in to eternal suffering. - Such divine judgement is blatantly suspect rendering the deity concerned tyrannical and a construct of blessed fiction.
[b]Take for example my (hypothetical) elderly neighbour...
I'm encouraged to see others who, like me, consider themselves above grade in imagination and both problem-solving and puzzle-creating.
While it is fanciful to consider any number of scenarios in which God's perfection is challenged, at the end of the day, He actually can make a rock bigger ...[text shortened]... enario in which God's judgment is suspect.
What does that make you, goad, if not God Himself?[/b]
My own divinity however is also greatly exaggerated...
01 Jan 18
Originally posted by @freakykbhNone says or vaguely implies anything about eternal soul.
In the same order as quoted:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and [b]the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Jesus said unto her,
I am the resurrection, and the life:
he that believeth in me,
though he were dead,
yet shall he live:
But as touching the resurrection of the dead,
have ye not read t ...[text shortened]... irit saith unto the churches;
He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.[/b]
One however does completely contradict you .. God can destroy souls.