‘Eternal suffering’ is nonsensical

Originally posted by @divegeester
Do you believe the teaching (as sonship does), that those who are not “saved” will be in hell being burnt alive for eternity?

It’s a simple question, the only disconnect is your inability answering unequivocally.

Do you believe the teaching (as sonship does), that those who are not “saved” will be in hell being burnt alive for eternity?

As far as I know, you never did show me that a person who dies and passes altogether out of existence ... is the same person when Christ resurrects the dead at the last judgment.

You never showed me any bases for assuming any continuation of that soul. Why could he not argue against God that he is freshly created and has nothing to do with the past life of the other person who was born.

To the best of my recollection, on this question, I got from you the big shhhhhhhhh !

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life ... " (See Rev. 20:12)

On what basis would you argue that these are the very self same people who had lived in generations before? If they died and passed into oblivion of annihilated non-existence completely, on what basis can God judge them as the same people?

"You just created ME. I have nothing to do with that person you made me look like. It is not fair, not just, not right that I be examined according to that non-existing person's life !"

Explain why all the judged could not thus argue with God.

Originally posted by @sonship
[quote] The divine righteousness that will see Sonship saved is intrinsically infected by the eternal suffering of other poor souls, as it is this very same righteousness that sees them condemned to the fires of hell. (One can not exist without the other). On this issue a child could immediately realise that there is nothing righteous about a deity who tort ...[text shortened]... ty to present a plausible case arguing - that Jesus Christ DID NOT ever SAY those words.

Sonship, I could easily respond in the same manner aptly tendered by FMF, that - "Luke was written, by non-eyewitnesses involved in trying to create a new religion, 60-70 years after Jesus was executed." (And that it was very unlikely the words belonged to Jesus).

But I don't even need to do that, and despite my incredulity to the veracity of any of the bible, am happy to go with the flow here (for the sake of discussion) and accept the words were indeed spoken by Jesus. - However, (before you sense any glimmer of victory) I do then need to ask you if you equate, 'has the authority to cast into Gehenna' as being the same as being 'righteously justified in casting souls into Gehenna?'

Is not the true indication of power in knowing when not to use it? Isn't it a tyrant who deploys every ounce of their authority,....not a wise and loving God?

Originally posted by @sonship

Do you believe the teaching (as sonship does), that those who are not “saved” will be in hell being burnt alive for eternity?

As far as I know, you never did show me that a person who dies and passes altogether out of existence ... is the same person when Christ resurrects the dead at the last judgment.

You never showed me any bases ...[text shortened]... hat non-existing person's life !"

Explain why all the judged could not thus argue with God.

I was talking to Le Freakey.

Should I adopt your silly foot-stamping approach you have taken with FMF and just pout at you?

Originally posted by @divegeester
Your love of this erroneous doctrine will be, and in this forum certainly is, your downfall. I will never forget the day I read your post telling us that the knowledge of eternal suffering helps you forgive those who mistreat you. I have never heard a more revealing statement about the condition of a mans heart; how many times have you imagined FMF burn ...[text shortened]... and therefore, according to you, you would find it hard to forgive me. How sad that is sonship.

Here’s the post you can reply to sonship 🙂

In full...

Your love of this erroneous doctrine will be, and in this forum certainly is, your downfall. I will never forget the day I read your post telling us that the knowledge of eternal suffering helps you forgive those who mistreat you. I have never heard a more revealing statement about the condition of a mans heart; how many times have you imagined FMF burning in the lashing flames of your hell?

This is also why you won’t acknowledge to me that my rejection of your teachings on hell and the trinity don’t preclude me from salvation - because then you would be accepting and acknowledging that I will escape your fiery retribution and therefore, according to you, you would find it hard to forgive me. How sad that is sonship.

Originally posted by @divegeester
Do you believe in the doctrine of eternal hell?

It is interesting when Christians dodge this question; Lemon Lime, Josephw, dj2becker to name a few others.

I don't believe in any doctrine.
Of the ones I understand, I believe them to be true.
The others do not concern me.
As stated, the soul lives forever.
It will either be with God forever or it will be without God.
With God = heaven.
Without God = hell.

Originally posted by @freakykbh
I don't believe in any doctrine.
Of the ones I understand, I believe them to be true.
The others do not concern me.
As stated, the soul lives forever.
It will either be with God forever or it will be without God.
With God = heaven.
Without God = hell.

Oh so you don’t have any issue with my OP then?

Btw Your avoidance of answering the original question is noted.

Originally posted by @freakykbh
I don't believe in any doctrine.
Of the ones I understand, I believe them to be true.
The others do not concern me.
As stated, the soul lives forever.
It will either be with God forever or it will be without God.
With God = heaven.
Without God = hell.

You will find nowhere in the Bible where it states that souls live forever.
In fact you find the opposite is stated rather clearly that souls die.

So your doctrine is based on your failure to read.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke

Sonship, I could easily respond in the same manner aptly tendered by FMF, that - "Luke was written, by non-eyewitnesses involved in trying to create a new religion, 60-70 years after Jesus was executed." (And that it was very unlikely the words belonged to Jesus).

But you're so much of an adult. You're not going to just hide behind FMF's coattails.

A big mature think for himself adult like YOU? ... Show me reason that Jesus didn't teach me "WHO ... it is that I should fear, and WHY it is that I should fear Him."

These specific words of Luke 12.
You are quickly grasping at a vague complaint ... "Well, Jesus (probably didn't say that or nearly anything else you read in the NT).

What was "aptly tendered" by FMF doesn't do your adult task.

You're seeking a way out in obfuscating of an entirely larger complaint.

But I don't even need to do that, and despite my incredulity to the veracity of any of the bible, am happy to go with the flow here (for the sake of discussion)

Then you're not as much of a big boy adult minded as I thought you advertised. I prefer truth in advertisement.

and accept the words were indeed spoken by Jesus. - However, (before you sense any glimmer of victory) I do then need to ask you if you equate, 'has the authority to cast into Gehenna' as being the same as being 'righteously justified in casting souls into Gehenna?'

I requested that we examine that that He spoke it, within reason, first. And then, having a reasonable assumption that He TAUGHT this, we can move on to best or worse interpretations of the meaning of those words.

You want to skip the first step.
I want to establish first, that we can credibly believe the evangelists were faithful to pass on what Jesus had SAID.

Is not the true indication of power in knowing when not to use it? Isn't it a tyrant who deploys every ounce of their authority,....not a wise and loving God?

First things first ... Do you believe the traveling companion of the Apostle Paul, Luke, was faithful to write what were words of Jesus there in Luke 12 ?

In the very same passage Jesus goes on to tell HIS DISCIPLES to "Fear not". It appears to me that FEAR has its appropriate application. When FEAR is needed, Jesus explains where FEAR is needed. And where FEAR is NOT NEEDED and NOT NECESSARY, He is likewise responsible in telling us where we believers should NOT fear.

" But I will tell show you whom you should fear, fear Him who after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear this One.

Are not five sparrows sold for two assaria? And not one of them is forgotten before God.

But even the hairs of your head have been numbered. Do not be afraid; you are of more value than many sparrows." (vs. 5-7)

The issue is the absolute omniscience of God. The authority of God is because of the infinite omniscience of God. Your hairs are numbered. Not a bird dies and God doesn't forget. He remembers a trillion trillion details. Not a molecule, not a atom, not a quark, a nutrino, a quantum particle, is unknown to Him.

No one can get away with ANYTHING!

His reach of reward can go beyond the tomb, beyond the age, beyond the existence of the universe itself.

His recompense for rejecting that He came and died for us in the person of Christ on the cross reaches beyond the grave, beyond death, This is the One, with absolute authority, you should fear when fear is needed. And this is also the One by which you have NO CAUSE for fear if you are under His protectorate.

I humored you a bit. Now can you provide evidence that all these words (Luke 12:1-7 or so) Jesus didn't say ?

Originally posted by @freakykbh
The only attempt at clever is your response.

It is not divine righteousness which leads to sonship (or anyone else's) salvation: it is divine justice.
God's righteousness was satisfied by the work performed on the cross by the Christ when He bore ALL sin in His body.
This body was specifically designed for that express purpose, i.e., to allow the imp ...[text shortened]... oo, only our choice is in reverse: stay eating everything else, or join God again in the Garden.

The Bible according to Freaky

Q : Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life.

A: It is not divine righteousness which leads to salvation: it is divine justice. God's righteousness was satisfied by the work performed on the cross by the Christ when He bore ALL sin in His body. This body was specifically designed for that express purpose, i.e., to allow the impure to be cast off and discarded; think of it as a courtesy flush. Despite every opportunity, each of the bodies given from Adam forward all failed... until the Christ. He alone was both qualified and worthy to mount the cross and be the transfer, which He did and in so doing, satisfied the righteousness of God.
(Freaky 10:26-28 KJV)

LOL... Nothing you say is in the Bible and certainly you will find nowhere that Jesus says anything remotely resembling this.

Originally posted by @sonship
Now can you provide evidence that all these words (Luke 12:1-7 or so) Jesus didn't say ?

Can you provide evidence that Jesus DID say them?

Is not the true indication of power in knowing when not to use it? Isn't it a tyrant who deploys every ounce of their authority,....not a wise and loving God?

Do you ever pick up a Bible, take a few days, and start reading through one book even?

You didn't notice the many many instances of the long suffering and patience of God ?

Why don't you actually read Matthew or Luke?
Even in the Old Testament, "the ministry of condemnation" God displayed long-suffering, restraint, mercy, patience.

You're unduly prejudiced by a lopsided, biased, myopic remembrance of only things you don't like in the Bible.

I have to take in the whole book.

Originally posted by @divegeester
Can you provide evidence that Jesus DID say them?

Tell you what sonship, I’ll start a thread on it and you can respond there 🙂

Originally posted by @sonship
His next post to me, I am expecting, will present his textural critical case that Jesus did not speak the words of Luke 12:3,4.

You mean you are specifically asking Ghost of a Duke to provide a circular argument - from the text itself - that somehow trumps the circular argument that you subscribe to?

Originally posted by @divegeester
Can you provide evidence that Jesus DID say them?

It is more plausible that Luke was faithful than was lying.
Now you can doubt if you wish.

He was a traveling companion with Paul. And he did journalistic research. His history has been vindicated a number of times.

The last I recall is that Luke mentions a pavement upon which Jesus stood to be judged by Pilate. For some years archeaologists said no such pavement existed. Then the day came when they found it, verifying Luke's history.

I trust Jesus spoke words in Luke 12 which Luke investigated into.

Here we see Luke's review of his research procedure.

"Inasmuch as many have undertaken to draw up a narrative concerning the matters which have been fully accomplished among us, even as those who from the beginning became eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, It seemed good to me also, having carefully investigated all things from the first, to write them out for you in an orderly fashion, most excellent Theophilus, So that you may fully know the certainty of the things concerning which you were instructed." (Luke 1:1-4)

I trust that the words of Jesus in Luke 12 were "carefully investigated" as well.