Originally posted by @rajk999Yeah, I'm sure he does.
He has an arsenal of nonsensical reasons for claiming that those statements dont apply to Christians.
Thought that the combination of those verses get to the heart of what you're telling him.
The gospel according to jaywill is a modern day equivalent of crying, "This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord!". Jaywill is telling people to trust "in deceptive words that are worthless". This serves as a stumbling block to the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.
The initial post is quite a strong argument. It is the one argument that even gets me thinking. However, I am not bothered by it at all anymore.
It's quite simple:
Your life is a gift from God. He wants what is best for you, and I think that he will be more liberal in his judgment than people say. I have heard that some Saints say that you will be utterly surprised by who is in heaven and who is not in heaven.
Justin Martyr implied that the only people who face truly eternal punishment are somewhat few. Some people basically are not culpable because they are not even exercising a free will. Think of a tribesman in the 17th century in the Papua New Guinean highlands, living in a lot of darkness and distance, in a culture where things like cannibalism and seasonal warfare and the abuse of women are regular facets of their existence. The circumstances they face do not put them in a circumstance where they would face hell like someone who, growing up with privilege, education, and full exposure to Christ, still behaves in a crazy way.
Here's another thing that I've learned...
I know the nature of the Gospels, and as was pointed out, it is to be merciful to the less fortunate. What makes you think that God will not be merciful to less fortunate people who are put in strange situations beyond their control? I have total faith in who God is. When I think of the judgment, and when I think of the fate that people will meet, I have total faith in my creator.
And His message shows that.
Faith in God does not just mean Faith in His Existence; it means Faith in Who He Is. He came to bring a message that has liberated so many from darkness, despair, and the improper way. It was an act of suffering on His Behalf to reach out to us. I have no reason to believe that this God of ours would play the role of the petty tyrant.
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Originally posted by @jacob-vervilleWell if it “even” get you thinking then it must be a zinger of an OP.
The initial post is quite a strong argument. It is the one argument that even gets me thinking. However, I am not bothered by it at all anymore.
Tell me, do you believe in the teaching of eternal suffering?
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Originally posted by @divegeesterBump for Jacob Verville.
Well if it “even” get you thinking then it must be a zinger of an OP.
Tell me, do you believe in the teaching of eternal suffering?
Originally posted by @divegeesterYou didn't read my full post?
Well if it “even” get you thinking then it must be a zinger of an OP.
Tell me, do you believe in the teaching of eternal suffering?
I brought up Justin Martyr and his doctrine of salvation and hell. I've also written about it in a differnet thread.
But I think that if you would have just read the full text of my post you would have had your answer, more or less.
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Originally posted by @jacob-vervilleI’d just like you to respond enequivocally rather than asking me to decipher what it is you believe, why etc.
You didn't read my full post?
I brought up Justin Martyr and his doctrine of salvation and hell. I've also written about it in a differnet thread.
But I think that if you would have just read the full text of my post you would have had your answer, more or less.
So, do you believe in the teaching of eternal suffering, whereby non Christians, or other sub-groups of any sort, will be suffering eternally in flames?
Simple question.
Originally posted by @divegeesterThe short answer is: "Yes."
I’d just like you to respond enequivocally rather than asking me to decipher what it is you believe, why etc.
So, do you believe in the teaching of eternal suffering, whereby non Christians, or other sub-groups of any sort, will be suffering eternally in flames?
Simple question.
The long answer is, of course, still a total "yes," but it does involve a lot of things that go beyond the dimensions of a cartoon understanding of the Final Judgment and the nature of heaven, hell, and eternity.
But again, I would stress that this is something that I cannot know much about other than what is explicitly stated.
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Originally posted by @jacob-vervilleIt’s not a what it’s a who, Jesus Christ.
What do you believe in, Dive?
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Originally posted by @jacob-vervilleSo, how do you respond to the OP of this thread?
The short answer is: "Yes."
The long answer is, of course, still a total "yes," but it does involve a lot of things that go beyond the dimensions of a cartoon understanding of the Final Judgment and the nature of heaven, hell, and eternity.
But again, I would stress that this is something that I cannot know much about other than what is explicitly stated.
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Originally posted by @thinkofone
Yeah, I'm sure he does.
Thought that the combination of those verses get to the heart of what you're telling him.
The gospel according to jaywill is a modern day equivalent of crying, "This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord!". Jaywill is telling people to trust "in deceptive words that are worthless". This serves as a stumbling block to the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.
The gospel according to jaywill is a modern day equivalent of crying, "This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord!". Jaywill is telling people to trust "in deceptive words that are worthless". This serves as a stumbling block to the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.
I liked your list of passages.
However, your false conclusion about me preaching, what we use to call "Cheap Grace" is completely wrong.
"Cheap Grace" is essentially what Paul was referring to when he asked this rhetorical questions based on what some of his critics were saying:
"What then shall we say? Should we continue in sin that grace may abound?" (Rom. 6:1)
Critics of the Apostle Paul were spreading rumors that he was teaching that men should take advantage of God's justification of them by faith, in order to CONTINUE to live in sin as they did before.
The lie propagated by you and your unlikely partner, Rajk999, is repeating the accusation towards me.
Again Paul referred to detractors of the Gospel of Grace.
"And why not say (as we are slanderously charged and as some affirm that we say), Let us do evil that good may come? whose judgment is just." (Rom. 3:8)
These are old false accusations you have dusted off to re-use. Rajk999 has been refuted about this many times. But he is hard headed and obsessed.
That you are looking to a nod from him is ironic.
As some kind of Jehovah's Witness pupil who seems to have been dis-fellowshipped or valuntarily gone his own individualized way, he is only a tad closer to some truth then your modernist mythological pseudo Gospel of Humanism attempting to hi-jack SOME words from the synoptics, and a few from John you find handy.
You two make an odd couple.
I'll deal with your false assessment of my presentation of the Gospel briefly below.
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"This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord!". Jaywill is telling people to trust "in deceptive words that are worthless". This serves as a stumbling block to the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.
I have many times on this Forum demonstrated that eternal justification, eternal redemption does not mean for the Christian that she or he could not "suffer loss" and that AFTER the second coming of Christ.
"The work of each [Christian] will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is." (1 Cor. 3:13)
If you are eternally redeemed by Christ you must expect to undergo a fiery examination before the judgment seat of Christ to determine your reward of discipline in the coming millennial kingdom.
Continuing:
"If anyone's [Christian's] work which he has built upon the foundation [Christ -v.11] remains, he will receive a reward." (v.14)
Eternal life is a GIFT. Having received the GIFT of eternal (Eph. 2:8) life does not mean Christ cannot in addition REWARD you OR punish you.
Read on:
"If anyone's [Christian's] work is consumed he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (v.15)
The word of God says one can be SAVED and SUFFER LOSS.
The word of the New Testament says one can be SAVED, YET SO ... as through fire. She or he is still eternally saved yet with some suffering of loss. No reward in addition to justification is a possibility, Suffering loss in spite of justification is a possibility.
Because ToO mentioned the temple, we will go on to see how Paul relates this to the new covenant temple of God which is the church.
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Watch now as ThinkofOne furnishes absolutely no adaquate rebuttal to my pointing out that one may be SAVED eternally and yet temporarily SUFFER LOSS.
He may have never noticed that before the age of eternity there is an intervening period of one thousand years. At that time some saved receive reward. At that time some saved suffer loss. At that time some not perfected are still perfected, yet so as through a kind of "summer school" of discipline.
I have told Rajk999 that I will not dignify any more of his posts with reading them or replying to them.
But I expect ThinkofOne also will have no effective rebuttal to First Corinthians 3:13-15.
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The gospel according to jaywill is a modern day equivalent of crying, "This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord!". Jaywill is telling people to trust "in deceptive words that are worthless". This serves as a stumbling block to the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.
No, I take the New Testament "temple of God" seriously and with its accompanying warnings in the very passage under examination.
Going on then:
"Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you." (vs. 16,17)
The context of destroying the temple of God, the church, is BUILDING with inferiors materials. To attempt to build the New Testament church with the things of the fallen man, the natural man, the un-transformed man, the un-sanctified man is to mar the temple; deface the temple; destroy the temple because of not building with the materials signifying the PROPER materials for the building of the church.
Go back to verse 11:
"For another foundation no one is able to lay beside that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
But if anyone builds [the temple of God, the church] upon the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, stubble,
The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is." (vs. 11-13)
Gold will not be burned up.
Silver will not be burned up.
Precious stones will not be burned up.
They symbolize the proper materials with which to build the Lord's church.
Wood, will be burned up.
Grass, will be burned up.
Stubble, will be burned up.
These signify the defiling aspects of the fallen life, the Adamic life which mar, defile, destroy the church of Christ.
They are the things of the fallen humanity.
The superior materials are the things produced by the Triune God in His growing in the believers. (See verses 9,10 before).
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God will destroy the Christian attempting to destroy the temple of God which is holy and is filled with the Holy Spirit.
This does not mean eternal damnation.
In perfect context it must mean the suffering loss in the previous verse.
"If anyone's [Christian's] work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
For God to cause the justified one who is to be saved, yet so as through fire, to "suffer loss" is for God to destroy him.
During the millennial kingdom, if one has not confessed some cherished old living, some sinning lifestyle one refused to let Jesus save him from, or some unforgiveness towards others, or such thing, that aspect of his soul will not survive the one thousand year age of the millennial kingdom.
During the time when he OUGHT to have been enjoying a reward, instead he will suffer loss. The un-transformed part of his soul life will be destroyed.
The church of God is holy. It is not to be defiled and marred by our natural and fallen living. Such discipline is dispensational and temporary.