There is a lot of evidence (some of which I mentioned above including his unexplained resurgance after leaving Boston, his unusual longevity, his hiring and association with a trainer/ drug dealer when he got free trainers and doctors, his secret workouts, his use of a non-doctor to give him injections when team doctors are readily available, his use of injections of a local anesthetic in his behind which is completely non-sensical, his possible roid rage incidents with Piazza, his need to make two sets of tapes with McNamee, his refusal to talk to Mitchell when he knew he would be named, his being named by Mitchell, an independent party) to confirm McNamee, a new york times independent source which indicated that Clemens talked about steriods all the time. The credibility of McNamee and Mitchell are only bostered by Pettitte/ Roberts subsequent admissions. His best buddy who went from New York to Houston and back to new York with him used performance enhancing drugs. The evidence is simply overwhelming.
Originally posted by no1marauderUh, isn't the point here that Clemons used HGH to prolong his career after it started going downhill when he got older.
According to McNamee, Clemens didn't use steroids until 1998.
Trivia question: who won the AL Cy Young in 1997?
In other words, he didn't need HGH in 1997 because he was young enough to not need them?
Originally posted by poundleeWhat "resurgence"? In 1996, Clemens struck out over a batter an inning and had an ERA 1.42 points lower than the league average. His longevity isn't that unusual anymore; lots of pitchers are making it into their 40's. McNamee was the team trainer of the Blue Jays; Clemens had good results on the Jays - what's sooooooooooo shocking about him wanting to keep him as a trainer? Again, it's common in baseball to have trainers give you shots - don't you know this? "Secret workouts" - LMAO! Clemens' rigorous workouts were common knowledge.
There is a lot of evidence (some of which I mentioned above including his unexplained resurgance after leaving Boston, his unusual longevity, his hiring and association with a trainer/ drug dealer when he got free trainers and doctors, his secret workouts, his use of a non-doctor to give him injections when team doctors are readily available, his use of inj ...[text shortened]... back to new York with him used performance enhancing drugs. The evidence is simply overwhelming.
The rest is more crap; "roid rage" with Piazza??? Yes, that was the first incident in baseball history where players almost fought. If the NY Times had a reliable source, he'd agree to be named. He claims he didn't know he'sd be named in Mitchell's report and besides, he was under no legal or moral obligation to speak to that owner-initiated witch hunt.
Petitte used HGH twice to treat an injury. McNamee said in a piece in either the Daily News or the New York Post (I read it but forgot which it was), that he believed Clemens when Clemens said he had no knowledge of Petitte's use of HGH.
So your information is almost entirely incorrect. "Overwhelming"??? What a joke.
EDIT: Brian Roberts had nothing whatsoever to do with McNamee, so how his admission bolsters McNamee's credibility I don't know. Do you think that the fact that police disbelieved McNamee's account in a 2000 date rape case helps his credibility? And why wasn't Mitchell aware of this when he vouched for McNamee's truthfulness?
EDIT2: The story was in January 8th's Daily News by Peter Botte. It's available here: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/01/08/2008-01-08_brian_mcnamee_says_roger_clemens_a_user_.html
EDIT3: Judge for yourself how credible McNamee sounds in the earlier case: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gCFkQDnNJ-XmK95crLv-UnDhDYjgD8U21MN80
Originally posted by uzlessWhen did he start going downhill? 10 starts after he won the Cy Young?
Uh, isn't the point here that Clemons used HGH to prolong his career after it started going downhill when he got older.
In other words, he didn't need HGH in 1997 because he was young enough to not need them?
Originally posted by poundleeThe point is, Clemens certainly wasn't "going downhill" by 1998. As some people (including you) have used that argument as supposed evidence that he must have used steroids, the fact that it is wrong hurts your argument - don't ya think?
Who cares when Clemens or any athlete started going downhill or even when he started cheating? If an athletes cheats strike all accomplishment (no metals, no awards, no retired numbers, no day honoring the athlete and no hall of fame)
Clemens appeared to be going downhill at the tail end of Boston. It would make sense that if Clemens started cheating it would be around the time he was told by the Red Sox that he was in decline and that they no longer needed his services. The proximity in time (although there is not a check the exact day he left Boston) is not a good fact for the Rocket (a fitting name isn't?)
I guess surely Nolan Ryan MUST have used steroids and HGH because he pitched until he was 46 years old and was still throwing 95mph fastballs. That kind of longetivity cannot be natural talent and work ethic. You know, I happen to know with first hand knowledge that Nolan had a personal trainer too!! That must have been it. And Nolan worked out all the time....a sure sign of cheating. And, wait a minute, he had roid rage too...Did anyone see that old man beat the living hell out of Robin Ventura on the mound when Robin decided to charge the mound because Nolie came with some heat high and tight? Oh man, this is all coming together now. And, there were reporters around Nolie a lot of the time. They must have been trying to sniff out his dealers. Nolan also took drugs when he was injured to help him heal....must have been steroids. Oh man, this is terrible. Wait a minute, Nolan lives near Houston....Clemens lives in Houston....Pettite lives near Houston.....former President Bush lives in Houston....President Bush's son is the current President of the United States.....George Mitchell used to be a US Senator....Oh my god!!! IT is a conspiracy!!!
Actually, I think Clemens may have been abducted by aliens and was given super human strength.
Yeah, that's the ticket!!!
Originally posted by poundleeI wrote this three weeks ago:
Clemens appeared to be going downhill at the tail end of Boston. It would make sense that if Clemens started cheating it would be around the time he was told by the Red Sox that he was in decline and that they no longer needed his services. The proximity in time (although there is not a check the exact day he left Boston) is not a good fact for the Rocket (a fitting name isn't?)
It must be really gratifying for Red Sox fans to now have a farcial reason to defend their team's grevious error in dumping Clemens after he had one so-so year. Even in that year, 1996, he struck out more than a batter an inning (257 K's in 242 IP) and had an ERA almost a point and a half lower than the average league ERA (3.63 v. 5.05). http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/clemero02.shtml
You really need to get some familiarity with the facts. According to the Mitchell report, he didn't use steroids until 1998, his second year with the Blue Jays. He went downhill sooooooooooooooooo far in his first year (before McNamee was hired by the Jays), that he won the Cy Young.
Originally posted by darvlayThis is the beaners (Red Sox Nation) way of justifying Clemens getting dealt from them and then trying to hide the shame that they dealt Ruth and now Clemens away only to have those dreaded Yankees scoop them up and beat their brains out with them.
No he didn't.
Are you stupid or something?
I am a Yankee fan, not a Red Sox fan. Not sure why that matters.
Clemens was in decline in last 4 years in Boston. In 1993 he was 11-14 with a 4.46 ERA, in 1994 he was only 9-7 (with a good ERA), in 1995 10-5 with a 4.18 1996 10-13 with a 3.63.
This is from a guy whose ERA starting in 1986 was 2.48, 2.97, 2.93, 3.13, 1.93, 2.62, 2.41. When your ERA almost goes from a high two to a low four, I'd say you are in decline. To answer Darvlay, I think you are the stupid one.
If I were Clemens I would be worried that my career was in trouble, then he goes to Toronto, takes performance enhancer and goes 21-7 with a 2.05 and 20-6 with a 2.65.
Originally posted by shortcircuitNolan Ryan, did not have a personal trainer who got indicted, he did not have anyone testify that they gave him steriods, he did not have a good friend who he went to team to team with who admitted he used performance enhancers and he was never named in the Mitchell Report. He never threw a bat at someone or released tape conversations with his drug dealer friends. Nolan Ryan never said anything as stupid as a non-medical profession got shots of lidicaine is his rear end. And as far as I now Congress never needed to meet to find out why Nolan Ryan is the middle of every performance enhancing story. But, if you add these facts to the fact that the Ryan Express was working while he was 46, I'd think he might be equally guilty.
I guess surely Nolan Ryan MUST have used steroids and HGH because he pitched until he was 46 years old and was still throwing 95mph fastballs. That kind of longetivity cannot be natural talent and work ethic. You know, I happen to know with first hand knowledge that Nolan had a personal trainer too!! That must have been it. And Nolan worked out all the ...[text shortened]... have been abducted by aliens and was given super human strength.
Yeah, that's the ticket!!!
Originally posted by poundleeFirst of all, do you even know who Ryan's personal trainer was? NO you do not, so once again you speak with supposition.
Nolan Ryan, did not have a personal trainer who got indicted, he did not have anyone testify that they gave him steriods, he did not have a good friend who he went to team to team with who admitted he used performance enhancers and he was never named in the Mitchell Report. He never threw a bat at someone or released tape conversations with his drug dealer ...[text shortened]... e fact that the Ryan Express was working while he was 46, I'd think he might be equally guilty.
Second, because no one was asked to study a situation or no one comes forth with evidence to prove it, does that mean the incident did not happen? NO. Does it mean the incident did happen? NO
Third, do you have any clue where you would take a lidocaine injection? Have you ever had a lidocaine injection?
Fourth, do you have to be a medical professional to inject lidocaine? NO (unless you declare that anyone holding a syringe is a medical professional). Do you have to be a medical professional to inject B-12? NO
Last, because a person is old, are they incapable of outperforming younger athletes? NO
Your arguements have more holes in them than a golf course does.