Originally posted by uzlessYou may want to hold up on discounting all professional athletes as non-heroes. There are many who have served in the military (Pat Tillman lost his life in Iraq or Afghanistan, I forget which). Roberto Clemente died when a plane he chartered and filled with food was heding for the devastation in Nicaragua crashed. Craig Biggio for years has not only contributed a ton of his personal dollars for cancer research, but he has also given of his time in events and fund raising for the Sunshine Kids (children with cancer). Currently, he is the high school baseball coach at my alma mater where he charges the sum of $1.00 per year to coach the program. A few weeks ago, he paid for a helicopter out of his pocket to hover over the rain-soaked field so it could be playable the next day against the #1 team in the nation. No other game was playable, but that game.
I used to follow baseball (the whole league, not just the jays) when i was younger. Used to love watching TWIB with Mel Ott.."How about that?"
The glove I had when I was a kid (still use to this day) was a rawlings signed by Mike Schmidt and I used to go down to Spring training with my father and also go to those charity celebrity softball tournaments t ...[text shortened]... against a guy who caught fly balls and decide for yourself. Was he a hero or a celebrity?
This just scratches the surface because I can go for quite a while on the ones that I have personal knowledge of. There are many more than that out there.
I am not sure what you define as heroic, but in my book, all of these guys are heroic. They are also celebrities as you suggest, and there are a great many who are worthless as human beings, but I still say you shouldn't lump them altogher as you have.
Originally posted by uzless
Heroes are well defined in the dictionary as, "A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war"
I'm not sure which dictionary you are using, but Mirriam Webster offers this as one of four definitions: "an object of extreme admiration and devotion : idol". This is the definition of hero which I ascribe to Mr. Robinson.
He was viewed as a hero not because of what he did (playing baseball). Rather, he was viewed as a hero because of the IMPACT he had on OTHER PEOPLE. Non-white people (blacks in particular) began to believe in what was possible. Non-white people began to believe that it was possible to make it in a white man controlled world. The change in other people's thinking is what was so great about JR playing baseball...But... A doctor is a hero because he saves lives. His ACTIONS, (saving lives), make him a hero. Jackie just played baseball. But this action (playing baseball) doesn't make him a hero.
Surely, the way Jackie put up with the never-ending aguse and prejudice, turned the other cheek at first, then wiith passion began to assert himself as a proud black man in a racist white world, are the actions for which he was truly revered. Not his ability to steal home, play hard or make that pitcher second guess himself and lose his concentration. Even I, as an admirer of Jackie Robinson, will admit that as great he was he was, he was not the greatest. It was and is this ACTION in the face of adversity that people revere and respect. This makes him a hero.
To say that white people don't know what non-white people go through is off the mark.
Fair enough. I retract said statement.
True, but the IF part is the key. I would absolutely agree with IDOL though.
See above. Idol can be used interchangably with hero in this context.
Not really sure where I criticized him or millions of young and old black americans. You've extrapolated into uncommented upon territory and put crazy words in my mouth. Please quote for me where I have done this. All I said was that Branch Rickey doesn't get mentioned enough. Branch had to put up with a tonne of crap too when he signed JR.
By your admission, that was not all you said. You claimed that your provocative JR post was a tongue in cheek commentary on the elevation of celebrity status to hero status (although I still fail to see the connection.)
To quote:
As for Jackie, that thread was meant mostly as a tongue in cheek comment to counter the idology that was on wall to wall tv about "heroes" with JR day. The point, although not explicity stated, was that heroes are NOT baseball players. They are CELEBRITIES. There is a difference. Perhaps I gave too much credit to the reader that this would have been self evident...
Clearly you have belittled and besmirched the efforts and accomplishments of Jackie Robinson, both literally and figuratively, and in doing so question the motive of every person who idolized him then and continues to do so now, including myself. It may be an extrapolation of sorts, but it was my interpretation and you are free to defend your comments further, if you wish.
EDIT
SC has pointed out Roberto Clemente in his post and how he died during relief efforts. Clearly, this conflicts with what I said regarding, "if there is anyone in Sports who can credibly be called a hero and idol, it is Jackie Robinson". Obviously there are many athletes who can be considered heroes for their works off the field. I think Jackie's one of the few men who can be called a hero for his actions on it. He is certainly the most celebrated.
Originally posted by shortcircuitnone of the things you mentioned has anything to do with them being sports figures. And that's exactly my point. Playing sports doesn't make you a hero. It's your ACTIONS that do.
You may want to hold up on discounting all professional athletes as non-heroes. There are many who have served in the military (Pat Tillman lost his life in Iraq or Afghanistan, I forget which). Roberto Clemente died when a plane he chartered and filled with food was heding for the devastation in Nicaragua crashed. Craig Biggio for years has not only co ...[text shortened]... ho are worthless as human beings, but I still say you shouldn't lump them altogher as you have.
Those people you've listed are to be commended for their actions. I take no issue with them. We need more people like that.
Originally posted by uzlessYes but your use of Jackie Robinson to prove this point is where you erred, in my opinion.
none of the things you mentioned has anything to do with them being sports figures. And that's exactly my point. Playing sports doesn't make you a hero. It's your ACTIONS that do.
Originally posted by darvlayI think you've moved into opinion terroritory instead of facts. Hero and Idol are two different things, but i don't want to get into semantics 15 minutes from beer, er uh, home time.
Clearly you have belittled and besmirched the efforts and accomplishments of Jackie Robinson, both literally and figuratively, and in doing so question the motive of every person who idolized him then and continues to do so now, including myself. It may be an extrapolation of sorts, but it was my interpretation and you are free to defend your comments further, if you wish.
I did say my jackie robinson thread was tongue in cheek. But not the way you made it out to be. I was jokingly trying to get some attention thrown on the white guys in baseball because they were the "real" heroes in breaking the colour barrier.
I was juxtaposing one false hero with the other in order to illuminate the inherent weakness of calling either one of them a hero. (For those of you less literate, read that again.)
Again, I haven't besmirched anything. Our defintions of hero and idol maybe different. Our definition of what a hero is may be different. But that's about it. Me saying JR doesn't meet my definition of a hero in no way reflects poorly on JR.
Originally posted by darvlay
Originally posted by uzless
[b]Heroes are well defined in the dictionary as, "A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war"
I'm not sure which dictionary you are using, but Mirriam Webster offers this as one of fo ...[text shortened]... can be called a hero for his actions on it. He is certainly the most celebrated.[/b]
Originally posted by uzless
I think you've moved into opinion terroritory instead of facts. Hero and Idol are two different things, but i don't want to get into semantics 15 minutes from beer, er uh, home time.
I did say my jackie robinson thread was tongue in cheek. But not the way you made it out to be. I was jokingly trying to get some attention thrown on the white guys in ba ...[text shortened]... t it. Me saying JR doesn't meet my definition of a hero in no way reflects poorly on JR.