23 Nov 23
Now, a question has been raised about banning Israel from the Olympic Games:
"Should Israel’s Flag Be Raised at the Paris Olympics?"
How the IOC is penalizing Russia provides insight into how it could treat Israel at the 2024 Games.
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/israel-russia-paris-olympics/
My position has not been changed because I have not received any reasonable arguments against my views.
I am of the opinion that:
1. Russia was banned from the Paris 2024 Olympics using demagogical arguments. The real reason for the ban was, of course, that in 2022, Russia started a war against Ukraine and annexed some Ukrainian territories starting in 2014.
2. The International Olympic Committee should publicly accept that it was a mistake to politicize sports and it should annul the sanctions imposed on Russia.
3. If the International Olympic Committee does not lift the sanctions imposed on Russia, it should impose the same sanctions on Israel because Israel is very explicitly committing genocide in the Gaza Sector since 07 October 2023.
@eintaluj saidNo one will view Russia and Israel's actions similarly because Russia annexed land, and its attack was also unprovoked. Israel's actions (in this latest conflict) is retaliatory.
Now, a question has been raised about banning Israel from the Olympic Games:
"Should Israel’s Flag Be Raised at the Paris Olympics?"
How the IOC is penalizing Russia provides insight into how it could treat Israel at the 2024 Games.
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/israel-russia-paris-olympics/
My position has not been changed because I have no ...[text shortened]... rael because Israel is very explicitly committing genocide in the Gaza Sector since 07 October 2023.
The biggest difference between Russia and Israel is that Israel has to deal with an internationally recognized terrorist organization that frequently launches rockets into its borders, while Russia was never in any danger from Ukraine.
24 Nov 23
@vivify said"No one will view Russia and Israel's actions similarly because Russia annexed land, and its attack was also unprovoked."
No one will view Russia and Israel's actions similarly because Russia annexed land, and its attack was also unprovoked. Israel's actions (in this latest conflict) is retaliatory.
The biggest difference between Russia and Israel is that Israel has to deal with an internationally recognized terrorist organization that frequently launches rockets into its borders, while Russia was never in any danger from Ukraine.
Excuse me, did you say: "NO ONE"?
Israel has occupied Palestine's land. It is officially in the UN documentation.
Israel has de facto annexed that land as it has built the settlements on that land.
A few days ago, the UN General Assembly overwhelmingly decided to condemn Israel's illegal settlements in Palestine. Only the US, Israel, Hungary and I do not know what voted against that resolution.
It is totally false claim that Russian aggression against Ukraine was unprovoked.
Moreover, altogether not all countries on the planet think that this invasion was unprovoked.
People have eyes and memory.
It follows that it does not make sense to read your reply till the end, as you are very poorly informed and already your first sentence contains several serious factual mistakes.
@eintaluj saidI meant annexed with sudden military force. You know, bombs, tanks, blown up hospitals, etc.
"No one will view Russia and Israel's actions similarly because Russia annexed land, and its attack was also unprovoked."
Excuse me, did you say: "NO ONE"?
Israel has occupied Palestine's land. It is officially in the UN documentation.
Israel has de facto annexed that land as it has built the settlements on that land.
A few days ago, the UN General Ass ...[text shortened]... are very poorly informed and already your first sentence contains several serious factual mistakes.
Note that Russia wasn't banned after Crimea since that was annexation was relatively bloodless. It was only after this most recent invasion that was much more violent that Russia was banned.
Russia's actions were indeed unprovoked. Their invasion wasn't in response to any threat of attack, it was in response to Ukrainians wanting a deal with the EU. This is what made their sudden rampage and murder of civilians result in a ban.
Israel's actions are indeed wrong but there are clear differences. In this latest conflict, Israel responded to a terrorist attack while Russia *is* the terrorist.
Just to be clear, I would wholeheartedly agree if Israel was also banned by chess organizations. I'm only discussing why these organizations may not have, not defending their decisions.
@vivify saidEverything is wrong and distorted in your replies. Meaningless to talk to you.
I meant annexed with sudden military force. You know, bombs, tanks, blown up hospitals, etc.
Note that Russia wasn't banned after Crimea since that was annexation was relatively bloodless. It was only after this most recent invasion that was much more violent that Russia was banned.
Russia's actions were indeed unprovoked. Their invasion wasn't in response to any th ...[text shortened]... nizations. I'm only discussing why these organizations may not have, not defending their decisions.
Among other things. You are pretty close to the borderline. After crossing it, you can be accused of justifying genocide or even making a public call for genocide - in the ICC (International Criminal Court).
It is obvious that you are unaware of Genf Conventions, the Genocide Convention, etc. Moreover, it i obvious that you do not care about the lives of unarmed civilians.
Your attempt to justify the Israeli unfolding genocide in Gaza, referring to Hamas's provocation and using terms like "retaliation" or "revenge" makes you a criminal.
According to international law, there is no such thing as a justified mass murder or justified genocide.
These conventions were made after WWII to protect the civilians.
It is not the case that if some Jews provoked Hitler's Germany, then Hitler had a "right" to commit the Holocaust.
Your language is primitive and barbaric. It corresponds not to the civilized world, humanism and international laws, but it is the ancient, brutal and barbaric principle of vendetta you are implicitly using.
The only "source" for the idiotic claim that the Russian invasion of Ukraine was unprovoked is US President Biden's idiotic declaration that it was "unprovoked". Before that, in the case of international relations, no one had used the term "unprovoked". Moreover, for years there has been abundant evidence that Ukraine and the West directly provoked Russia. There were hundreds of articles in Western newspapers for years showing that Russia was provoked. Some of such articles included in their captions phrases like "British brinkmanship", for example.
Moreover, you should not assume that all other people and all other countries are mentally as undeveloped as you.
Israel has killed in the Gaza Strip for one month more children than were killed in the Ukraine war during almost two years, and more civilians than were killed in the Ukraine war during one year.
The intensity of killing civilians in the Gaza Strip is record high.
Understandably, you do not care and you assume that "no one" cares.
@eintaluj said"Just to be clear, I would wholeheartedly agree if Israel was also banned by chess organizations. I'm only discussing why these organizations may not have, not defending their decisions."---Vivify
Everything is wrong and distorted in your replies. Meaningless to talk to you.
Among other things. You are pretty close to the borderline. After crossing it, you can be accused of justifying genocide or even making a public call for genocide - in the ICC (International Criminal Court).
It is obvious that you are unaware of Genf Conventions, the Genocide Convention, etc ...[text shortened]... he Gaza Strip is record high.
Understandably, you do not care and you assume that "no one" cares.
I agree that Israel is committing genocide, and I agree with everything you've said about them.
My point is *not* to justify any of Israel's actions. All I'm doing is discussing why Israel hasn't been banned from chess organizations like Russia. My post should be read in this light.
The main reason is that the West is predominantly Christian, and fundamentalists are pro-Israel.
The second reason is political: the West is united against Russia (both as the EU and as NATO).
But then there's a third reason: Perception.
Israel was attacked and lost 1,300 civilians in this latest conflict. Russia was not attacked or in any fear for its security. Sure, Ukraine attempted to join NATO in 2008 but as of 2021 when Russia invaded, they were no closer to joining. Therefore Russia attacked a country that was no physical threat to it. Russia mercilessly attacked a nation that posed no security threat to it.
In fact, Putin's stated reason for invading Crimea had nothing to do with security. Putin claimed he was doing so (in the chaos of violent crackdown on protests) that it was for the "protection" of Crimean citizens. His words didn't mention protecting Russia or western provocation.
In 2021 there were no actions by Ukraine or NATO that could be used as an excuse for invasion. Therefore, Russia's actions were completely unprovoked. That makes a big difference in the perception between Russia and Israel, especially from the Christian West.
Of course, Hamas' actions were not out of the blue and are in the context of a cruel blockade, as well as Palestinian settlements being stolen. But that's more nuanced than than a superpower with the world's second largest nuclear stockpile invading a much weaker nation.
No defense of Israel, I'm just trying to answer why chess organizations may view them differently.
24 Nov 23
@vivify said"My point is *not* to justify any of Israel's actions. All I'm doing is discussing why Israel hasn't been banned from chess organizations like Russia. My post should be read in this light."
"Just to be clear, I would wholeheartedly agree if Israel was also banned by chess organizations. I'm only discussing why these organizations may not have, not defending their decisions."---Vivify
I agree that Israel is committing genocide, and I agree with everything you've said about them.
My point is *not* to justify any of Israel's actions. All I'm doing is ...[text shortened]...
No defense of Israel, I'm just trying to answer why chess organizations may view them differently.
I am sorry.
However, I am still sceptical about the phrase "nobody". In this context, it sounds as if nobody is sceptical concerning the US propaganda.
While in the US itself, President Biden has been sued in court for not avoiding the Gaza genocide and letting it happen. With the US bombs.
25 Nov 23
@vivify
"But then there's a third reason: Perception.
Israel was attacked and lost 1,300 civilians in this latest conflict. Russia was not attacked or in any fear for its security."
It is the Western public perception that Russia did not fear for its security. Such a narrative was imposed on the Western public by the governments and the mainstream newspapers. Whatever criticism of that narrative was interpreted as Russian propaganda. At the same time, Russian media channels were blocked in the West. Even Putin's speeches were not quoted but arbitrarily interpreted.
The fact is, however, that Ukraine joining NATO was perceived as a great strategic threat to Russia in its nuclear competition with the US.
The fact is that Russia told it all the time, but it was ignored in the West.
The fact is, surprisingly, that the US leadership knew 20 years ago that any serious attempt to include Ukraine in NATO leads to war, that there is a consensus in Russia (independently of any single person like Putin), that it must not happen that Ukraine joins NATO.
Ukraine joining NATO was regarded as the Cuban Crisis.
And the US leaders knew it and it is proven, based on the US own documentation, that they knew it.
Among other things, Wikileaks's "Diplomatic Cables" proved that the US leadership knew that if NATO started to extend to Ukraine, Russia would react with a war.
The other thing is the perception of Israeli events.
Again, in the UK and US, the information about the Israel/Palestine conflict has been suppressed for decades.
Hamas's 07 October attack was a reply to some events that happened earlier; some of such events were reactions to the events that happened earlier, etc. There is a long history of war. Gaza Strip has been attacked by Israeli tanks many times and Hamas's attack was also not the first one.
According to the UN documentation, a few months before the 07 October attack, there were about 5000 Palestinians in the Israeli prisons, many of them women and children. They were political prisoners, and most of them were arrested illegally from the areas occupied by Israel.
Such propaganda, that the war started without any reason on 07 October, is eatable only for very stupid Americans.
25 Nov 23
@eintaluj saidOh ... poor Palestinians in Gaza. They have done nothing and yet they get abused by the worthless Jews.
Hamas's 07 October attack was a reply to some events that happened earlier; some of such events were reactions to the events that happened earlier, etc. There is a long history of war. Gaza Strip has been attacked by Israeli tanks many times and Hamas's attack was also not the first one.
@eintaluj saidI agree Ukraine would be a strategic threat. But apart from the initial declaration in 2008 no further strides to joining NATO had been made by Ukraine. NATO stated during that same summit that Ukraine was to complete their Membership Action Plan, which Ukraine never came close to finishing.
@vivify
"But then there's a third reason: Perception.
Israel was attacked and lost 1,300 civilians in this latest conflict. Russia was not attacked or in any fear for its security."
It is the Western public perception that Russia did not fear for its security. Such a narrative was imposed on the Western public by the governments and the mainstream newspapers. W ...[text shortened]... a, that the war started without any reason on 07 October, is eatable only for very stupid Americans.
Ukrainian membership to NATO was dead in the water. Invading Ukraine for a second time after 14 years of no progress toward joining NATO seemed like just an excuse. It would've made sense for Russia to invade in 2008 but not 14 years later.
Regarding Israel, I've noticed the conflict mostly gets coverage after a Hamas attack. The actions of Israel leading up the attacks, like illegally moving into Palestinian settlements, their apartheid state, the blockade, etc., are only discussed after Hamas retaliates and never before.
This is a major problem with U.S. and western media in general. Israel's actions do not get that round-the-clock coverage but Hamas' does. This makes it appear that Palestinians are always the aggressors.
25 Nov 23
@kellyjay saidGet lost, genocidal maniac.
I don't understand why you seem upset with only one side of that dispute. Worrying about genocide taking place while ignoring the call for genocide from the other seems a bit prejudiced on your part.
It is not your business to decide whether I am "upset". So get lost after your personal attack and demagoguery.
You are evidently ignoring the number of killed unarmed civilians in the Gaza Strip.
You are also ignoring the fact that my post is talking about sports sanctions.
You cannot ban Hamas from the Olympic Games because it has never been a participant in the Olympic Games, because it is not a state but an organisation.
25 Nov 23
@vivify saidI really do not know who started the Israel/Arab wars and who is the aggressor.
I agree Ukraine would be a strategic threat. But apart from the initial declaration in 2008 no further strides to joining NATO had been made by Ukraine. NATO stated during that same summit that Ukraine was to complete their Membership Action Plan, which Ukraine never came close to finishing.
Ukrainian membership to NATO was dead in the water. Invading Ukraine for a secon ...[text shortened]... e-clock coverage but Hamas' does. This makes it appear that Palestinians are always the aggressors.
However, I totally agree with you that the attitudes of Western people, even chess grandmasters, are shaped by Western mainstream media. And this Western mainstream media is actually not a free press, and it presents a distorted, biased picture of reality.
This is one of the reasons why it is difficult to achieve Western sports organisations would make reasonable and balanced decisions having political consequences.
Therefore, it was a grave mistake to politicize sports and start to impose sports sanctions based on political events.
Sports organisations are incompetent to decide who is the aggressor and who is committing the war crimes.
Their decisions are based on their homeland propaganda.
Moreover, these sports organisations are heavily dependent on their existence on the funds and sponsors.
As a result of the US-led policy, international sports organisations have been politicised and weaponised.
The consequence might be that such organisations like FIDE or IOC cease to exist. They may simply decay. The Olympic Games might be boycotted by half of the planet. Etc.
25 Nov 23
@eintaluj saidI agree no sport should punish the athlete for the sins of their homeland.
Therefore, it was a grave mistake to politicize sports and start to impose sports sanctions based on political events.
Sports organisations are incompetent to decide who is the aggressor and who is committing the war crimes.
Their decisions are based on their homeland propaganda.
Moreover, these sports organisations are heavily dependent on their existence on the fu ...[text shortened]... se to exist. They may simply decay. The Olympic Games might be boycotted by half of the planet. Etc.
25 Nov 23
@eintaluj saidYou are a liar. You are aware of the history of this conflict. You pretend not to know because you know that it is the Palestinians that want this war. They do not desire peace. They want the Jews dead or out of the land of Palestine. They have written it into their charter, they have indoctrinated this into the minds of the kids in schools, they repeatedly speak of this in their homes and in the mosquees, and in their prayers. Killing Jews is a way of life. They thrive on hatred and death. They are on a Jihad, a mission of Intifadah in which those who kill Jews are rewarded by Allah. These are not normal people. These are severely damaged individuals who cannot adjust to normal life in other countries. Even their own neighbours know this and avoid taking in refugees because they are misfits wherever they go.
I really do not know who started the Israel/Arab wars and who is the aggressor.