25 Nov 23
@rajk999 saidYou're aware that this conflict started because Israel forced Palestinian families out of their homes, right? What you're doing is blaming Palestinians for not simply rolling over and letting this happen. You're saying the Palestinians are wrong for fighting back when Israel was the one who used violence to take over their land.
You are aware of the history of this conflict.
To this day, Israel continues taking more land and taking over more Palestinian settlements in the West Bank through violence. Despite this, you refuse to criticize Israel and desperately want to flip blame on Palestinians.
Can Israel do no wrong in your eyes? Or is because you're a hardcore Christians trained to believe the Israel deserves the land no matter what because "god" said so?
25 Nov 23
1 edit
@vivify saidThat is the kind of talk that is the source of misinformation. The conflict started way back in 1890, when Jews started returning to Palestine. They were greeted with hostility and over the years the indigenous Arabs [called Palestinians], realised that this trend of Jews returning is not going to stop so small scale fighting and skirmishes was the norm up until 1948. This was when the UN approved a British Partition Plan which divided the land. The Jews accepted and the Palestinians refused that plan. They said clearly they are not going to accepted a 2-state Palestine. That is the bottom line. They do not want peace. They want the Jews dead. This is their life mission. They teach it in their schools and pray to Allah for help to kill Jews.
You're aware that this conflict started because Israel forced Palestinian families out of their homes, right?
So that was the start of the big conflict, the War of Independence. The Palestinians wanted that war. They got it. They lost. This his how it has been for the last 75 years.
As for the Jews chasing out Palesstinians from the homes, please provide a reference to where and when and I would be happy to read up on it and see how it happened. Making statements in a vacuum does not bring out the facts. I am certainly not saying they are innocent at all.
I know the Israeli govt have moved Jews forcibly out of West Bank and Gaza in order to help with peace. So while they have relocated Palestinians, they have done it with Jews as well.
@rajk999 saidThe Jews returned after two thousand years. Keep that in mind.
That is the kind of talk that is the source of misinformation. The conflict started way back in 1890, when Jews started returning to Palestine.
As for the Jews chasing out Palestinians from the homes, please provide a reference to where and when and I would be happy to read up on it and see how it happened. Making statements in a vacuum does not bring out the facts. I am certainly not saying they are innocent at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_demolition_of_Palestinian_property
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israel-ramps-up-demolition-of-palestinian-homes-in-jerusalem
I know the Israeli govt have moved Jews forcibly out of West Bank and Gaza in order to help with peace. So while they have relocated Palestinians, they have done it with Jews as well.
If Israel wants to remove its own citizens in order to "help with peace", that's fine. But they can't go into Palestinian land and force Palestinians from their homes. Hopefully those two sources will shed light on the situation.
25 Nov 23
@vivify saidI will read up on that.
The Jews returned after two thousand years. Keep that in mind.
As for the Jews chasing out Palestinians from the homes, please provide a reference to where and when and I would be happy to read up on it and see how it happened. Making statements in a vacuum does not bring out the facts. I am certainly not saying they are innocent at all.
https://en.wikiped ...[text shortened]... force Palestinians from their homes. Hopefully those two sources will shed light on the situation.
Jews returned in large numbers yes, but there were always Jews in Palestine for the last 3500 years. The land [as a whole] does not and never was land belonging to indigenous Arabs. It went from the Romans, to a whole bunch of Empires and finally to the British Empire in around 1915. In those days imperialists owned these lands, and can dispose of it as they see fit.
25 Nov 23
@vivify saidFirst, understanding cause and effect is the problem in this situation. Between 1948 after the British moved out of Palestine, leaving the UN Partition Plan in place, there were 7 major wars including this one, and whole bunch of smaller ones. In each case the war was precipitated by Palestinian agression, suicide bombers or hostilities of some kind.
If Israel wants to remove its own citizens in order to "help with peace", that's fine. But they can't go into Palestinian land and force Palestinians from their homes. Hopefully those two sources will shed light on the situation.
1948–49: Israel’s War of Independence and the Palestinian Nakba
1956: Suez Crisis
1967: Six-Day War
1973: Yom Kippur War
1982: Lebanon War
2006: Second Lebanon War
2023 ... Unnamed so far
How the first and last started is common knoweldge. The 2nd one with Suez Canal is the result of Egypt blocking off Israel's access to the Suez canal, which is an illegal move. Israel retaliated and took some of the land around that area, and regained access to the Suez. The Lebanon War was caused by Hexbollah attacking Jews on the border. Its the same, retaliate, attack, pushback, annex land, secure the area.
This is the modus operandi in a war. War is not [like some people might think], just tit for tat ie if I kill 1398 people, and take 195 hostages, then to make it even you kill the same amount of my people. That is the thinking of a child. The purpose of the war is to solve a problem. It is to stop or control the aggression, and the way to do that is remove the threats, punish people who pose the threat and annex and secure land from which the threats come. In your sites posted the common piece of information in most cases of IDF destroying homes is because they were associated with suicide bombers or militants and their families.
Its a hard lesson to learn, and Palestinians have not learned that they cannot continue on with terrorists attacks, suicide bombings to solve their problems, which is only getting worse every year. Soon Israel is going to annex Gaza and strictly control who gets in and out. More trouble for them sadly, on the way.
@rajk999 saidYou say this while at the same time demonizing Palestinians for their attacks. Isn't that contradictory? Palestinians are under a blockade while at the same time continuing to lose land to Israelis. Based on what you just stated about how war is to stop the aggressor, why do you criticize them while giving Israel a pass?
This is the modus operandi in a war. War is not [like some people might think], just tit for tat ie if I kill 1398 people, and take 195 hostages, then to make it even you kill the same amount of my people. That is the thinking of a child. The purpose of the war is to solve a problem. It is to stop or control the aggression, and the way to do that is remove the threats ...[text shortened]... stroying homes is because they were associated with suicide bombers or militants and their families.
You can't employ "this is just how war works" only for Israel given the oppressive situation Palestinians are in.
You mentioned that the U.N. drew up the initial plans for the partition of Israel. However, the Arabs rejected the plan. Out of 56 countries that voted only 33 accepted (13 voted against, 10 abstained). Despite this Israel decided to keep the borders anyway. Imagine if it was the other way around: that the Jews rejected a deal that didn't favor them and the Arabs kept it anyway....would you be okay with that?
For the record I'm not anti-Israel nor anti-Palestine. I am against this all-or-none mentality both sides seem to have.
The truth is after 2,000 years of being displaced ending in a horrific holocaust, the Jews understandably jumped at the chance to have their own homeland; a place for their women and children to be safe. In doing so the rights of Arabs were ignored as their land was violently taken from them. They fought back, resulting in this decades-long struggle.
I believe both sides are following the "modus operandi" of war and it's not quite fair to criticize just one side. It's become easier to blast Israel since they're more powerful and therefore have more ability to oppressor the other but the Arabs would do the same if they had the never-ending support of the U.S.
There's not much more to say other than I really appreciate you having a thoughtful discussion with me. It's fine if I don't change your mind but if you seem to have earnestly considered my points, which is all I can. I ask.
Same to Eintaluj, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me.
25 Nov 23
@rajk999 saidI am sure that Interpol or some other relevant institution should identify the person with the call name @rajk999 and should jail that person.
You are a liar. You are aware of the history of this conflict. You pretend not to know because you know that it is the Palestinians that want this war. They do not desire peace. They want the Jews dead or out of the land of Palestine. They have written it into their charter, they have indoctrinated this into the minds of the kids in schools, they repeatedly speak of this i ...[text shortened]... eir own neighbours know this and avoid taking in refugees because they are misfits wherever they go.
There is a constant stream of various international crimes in @rajk999 posts and comments.
For example, its arguments amount to an attempt to justify Israel's crimes against humanity. What Israel is doing now in the Gaza Strip amounts to genocide. According to international conventions, there are no such things as "justified massacre", "justified ethnic cleansing", or "justified genocide". But @rajk999 systematically tries to make an impression that Israel's murdering of thousands and thousands of Palestinian unarmed civilians, women and children in the Gaza Strip is somehow "justified" by the fact that on 07 October 2023, the military organisation Hamas, based in the Gaza Strip, attacked Israel and around 1200 Israeli soldiers and civilians were killed.
Genocide is not a self-defence against alleged or threatened or real genocide.
According to international conventions, even public calls for genocide are a crime.
@rajk9999 posts and comments are pretty well interpreted as a public call for genocide because Israel's siege and bombing of the Gaza Strip is an ongoing process (stopped now for a few days).
Therefore, @rajk999 should be arrested.
Besides, his or her posts are systematically and intentionally disrupting the discussion. The present thread is about sports sanctions. His or her posts are also systematically spreading false information or non-proven information. Right here, @rajk999 presented one's hate speech against Palestinians without presenting any evidence whatsoever.
I repeat.
Since 07 October, I have observed the claims of both sides of the conflict.
I have seen clear genocidal messages from the side of the Israeli highest leadership. We all have seen that.
I have not seen a single instance of Palestinian or Hamas authorities using the word "Jews". Only the word "occupants" has been used systematically.
I have not seen a single instance of them calling for genocide or mass killing of Israeli citizens. One leader of Hamas publicly admitted that on 07 October 2023, Hamas killed some Israeli civilians. However, he added that it was done "accidentally". Even if he lies, it is clear that such a declaration is not a public threat of genocide.
That leader, however, publicly reiterated that their aim was to liquidate the state of Israel. That much is true.
Thus, the public statements of Israeli authorities have been genocidal while the public statements of Hamas, starting from 07 October, have been not.
However, I repeat it again:
I am talking here about imposing chess sanctions and sports sanctions on Israel for committing genocide in the Gaza Strip.
Moreover, as I have many times said earlier, the mass murder of Palestinian civilians in the Gaza Strip is not justified by the actions of Hamas, it is not Israel's self defence and it is a crime against humanity.
25 Nov 23
1 edit
@vivify saidWell, not only me but people in general demonize the Palestiinains style of attack. Its not just guerilla style tactics but terrorists methods directly attacking civilians in busses, schools, restaurants and malls, using suicide bombers. Hamas pays these people lots of money to do this.
You say this while at the same time demonizing Palestinians for their attacks. Isn't that contradictory? Palestinians are under a blockade while at the same time continuing to lose land to Israelis. Based on what you just stated about how war is to stop the aggressor, why do you criticize them while giving Israel a pass?
You can't employ "this is just how war works" on ...[text shortened]... , which is all I can. I ask.
Same to Eintaluj, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me.
You will notice that the destruction of homes and villages only started after 1948. Thats because the terrorist tactics were employed after 1948. One caused the other.
Yes, thanks for civil discussion. I am standing on the side of the Jews although I hope this thing ends with everyone living in peace one good day
On a more interesting note, Im digging into the allegation that some politicians have a vested interest in prolonging this war because of Gaza's natural resources. I might start a thread on that in a few days.
25 Nov 23
@rajk999 saidGenerally Empires of the time lost their lands to ethnic nationalist uprisings of which Israel is a good example.
I will read up on that.
Jews returned in large numbers yes, but there were always Jews in Palestine for the last 3500 years. The land [as a whole] does not and never was land belonging to indigenous Arabs. It went from the Romans, to a whole bunch of Empires and finally to the British Empire in around 1915. In those days imperialists owned these lands, and can dispose of it as they see fit.
Thus, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) banned Russia from the 2024 Paris Olympic Games.
The official argument of the IOC was purely bureaucratic and formal.
The Nation writes:
The IOC based its decision to ban the Russian Olympic Committee on two factors: its blatant abrogation of the Olympic Truce, a nonbinding resolution passed every two years by the United Nations that encourages countries to refrain from war during the Games, and its breach of the Olympic Charter when it violated the territorial integrity of the national Olympic committee of Ukraine by taking over “regional sports organizations which are under the authority of the National Olympic Committee of Ukraine (namely Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia).”
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/israel-russia-paris-olympics/
Russia "violated the territorial integrity of the national Olympic committee of Ukraine".
But wait a minute...
The IOC was founded in 1894.
Before WW2 and after WW2, The Soviet Union occupied and annexed the Baltic states - Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.
The US and several other Western countries had always been in a position that the Baltic states were occupied and annexed by the Soviet Union.
Nevertheless, Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian athletes were able to participate in the Olympic Games as the representatives of the USSR.
The territorial integrity of the national Olympic Committees of these countries were violated by the USSR.
But nothing happened.
Tell me now that there is any integrity whatsoever in the actions and arguments of the IOC.
(Concerning chess, remember that Paul Keres represented after WW2 the USSR and no one protested.)
@eintaluj said“ Since 07 October, I have observed the claims of both sides of the conflict.
I am sure that Interpol or some other relevant institution should identify the person with the call name @rajk999 and should jail that person.
There is a constant stream of various international crimes in @rajk999 posts and comments.
For example, its arguments amount to an attempt to justify Israel's crimes against humanity. What Israel is doing now in the Gaza Strip a ...[text shortened]... ied by the actions of Hamas, it is not Israel's self defence and it is a crime against humanity.[/i]
I have seen clear genocidal messages from the side of the Israeli highest leadership. We all have seen that.
I have not seen a single instance of Palestinian or Hamas authorities using the word "Jews". Only the word "occupants" has been used systematically.
I have not seen a single instance of them calling for genocide or mass killing of Israeli citizens. One leader of Hamas publicly admitted that on 07 October 2023, Hamas killed some Israeli civilians. However, he added that it was done "accidentally". Even if he lies, it is clear that such a declaration is not a public threat of genocide.
That leader, however, publicly reiterated that their aim was to liquidate the state of Israel. That much is true. ”
You are either an inveterate liar or completely insane. You cannot accidentally rape someone you cannot accidentally tie a parent and child together with barbed wire and set fire to them accidentally. Hamas is a genocidal terrorist cabal and needs to wiped off te face of the earth.
Netanyahu needs to be brought before The Hague for the crimes that israel is committing against the innocent women and children of Gaza.
There is no excuse for what Hamas did and there is no excuse for Israel’s communal punishment of the long suffering Palestinian people.
28 Nov 23
@kevcvs57 saidThe Hague, [or is it the International Criminal Court], is a useless organisation, so good luck with that option. If you read the Geneva Convention, you will realise that the war criminals are Hamas and their supporters [like this EintaluJ character]. A war crime is not determined by public opinion and social media.
Netanyahu needs to be brought before The Hague for the crimes that israel is committing against the innocent women and children of Gaza.
There is no excuse for what Hamas did and there is no excuse for Israel’s communal punishment of the long suffering Palestinian people.
A war crime is committed when military installations or hardware are placed inside, on or at, protected areas and buildings so that they can escape attack and benefit from their protected status under the Convention. Hamas is doing just that, and the endangering the lives of civilians. The attacking party is not at fault for targeting these fake protected areas - schools, hospitals and residential areas. The fault lies squarely on the shoulders of Hamas and any member of the public that knows about these military installations including underground tunnels, hidden inside protected buildings.
I quoted the relevant Articles from the Geneva Convention in another thread. I suggest you read the whole thing.
28 Nov 23
@rajk999 saidNo you read the Geneva convention and you’ll clearly see that the aerial bombardment of civilians in Gaza plus the medieval siege imposed by the Israeli government are classic examples of war crimes.
The Hague, [or is it the International Criminal Court], is a useless organisation, so good luck with that option. If you read the Geneva Convention, you will realise that the war criminals are Hamas and their supporters [like this EintaluJ character]. A war crime is not determined by public opinion and social media.
A war crime is committed when military installations o ...[text shortened]... relevant Articles from the Geneva Convention in another thread. I suggest you read the whole thing.
If what Israel is doing in Gaza is not a war crime then there clearly is no such thing as a war crime
28 Nov 23
@kevcvs57 saidThere are some people who are not protected under the Geneva Convention. An obvious eg would be terrorist groups. All that one has to prove is that the Gazans have supported Hamas.... their charter, their mo, their bombing of civilian spaces. Gazans hands are not clean. This is why there are Palestinian women and children in Israeli jails. These people encourage, cheer on and support even the very young people to kill Jews. This is not a normal civilian population caught between two warring parties. They can be considered para-military.
No you read the Geneva convention and you’ll clearly see that the aerial bombardment of civilians in Gaza plus the medieval siege imposed by the Israeli government are classic examples of war crimes.
If what Israel is doing in Gaza is not a war crime then there clearly is no such thing as a war crime
29 Nov 23
@rajk999 saidLiar or halfwit which label would you prefer
There are some people who are not protected under the Geneva Convention. An obvious eg would be terrorist groups. All that one has to prove is that the Gazans have supported Hamas.... their charter, their mo, their bombing of civilian spaces. Gazans hands are not clean. This is why there are Palestinian women and children in Israeli jails. These people encourage, cheer on ...[text shortened]... ormal civilian population caught between two warring parties. They can be considered para-military.
Explain how a baby in an incubator or the countless toddlers murdered by Israeli forces were indicating their support for Hamas
And your 100% wrong about alleged or proven terrorists being outwith the protection of the convention
Is everyone one in your psychotic church a retarded fascist or do they just tolerate you.