http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/13/bonds.steroid/index.html
"Federal prosecutors may be pursuing a perjury case against San Francisco Giants slugger Barry Bonds stemming from his denials of steroid use during a federal grand jury appearance in 2003, multiple sources have told CNN."
The question is "Did Barry Bonds use performance enhancing steroids?" . If that question is "Yes", should Barry removed from the all time home run list? I think what we have here is an "Ironman31" case. You simply cannot perform that well unless there is some form of cheating going on. It is about time that baseball and the government did something about this.
Originally posted by socialist1917It's natural to double in size when you hit your athletic prime at 40.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/13/bonds.steroid/index.html
"Federal prosecutors may be pursuing a perjury case against San Francisco Giants slugger Barry Bonds stemming from his denials of steroid use during a federal grand jury appearance in 2003, multiple sources have told CNN."
The question is "Did Barry Bonds use performance enhancing steroid ...[text shortened]... g going on. It is about time that baseball and the government did something about this.
"if" (LOL) he used performance enhancing drugs, he should be removed from the all time home run list.
Originally posted by socialist1917Yes, banned from future Hall of Fame status, and all of his HRs marked with TWO asterisks.....
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/13/bonds.steroid/index.html
"Federal prosecutors may be pursuing a perjury case against San Francisco Giants slugger Barry Bonds stemming from his denials of steroid use during a federal grand jury appearance in 2003, multiple sources have told CNN."
The question is "Did Barry Bonds use performance enhancing steroid ...[text shortened]... g going on. It is about time that baseball and the government did something about this.
He really does not help himself. He has poor relations with the press and the public. He has basically drawn a bullseye on himself. All of this talk about Barry reminds me of a joke I heard.
What is the difference between God and Barry Bonds?
God knows he is not Barry Bonds.
Anyone want to try to defend Bonds, or make a case for no asterisks? Would love to see the argument.
How many home runs would Ruth, Aaron etc had if they used steriods? We dont know, that is why they cant be compared. Waiting for MLB to officially say Bonds wont be in the official record books.
Originally posted by impatientWhy just Barry?
Anyone want to try to defend Bonds, or make a case for no asterisks? Would love to see the argument.
How many home runs would Ruth, Aaron etc had if they used steriods? We dont know, that is why they cant be compared. Waiting for MLB to officially say Bonds wont be in the official record books.
The pitchers he faced were using the same drugs he was.
The compitition he faced in HR production used the same drugs he did.
A good 75% of them are on, or have been on 'roids. The owners have known all along. Their agents have known all along. Their teammates have known all along.If you're paying attention at all YOU knew all along. Everyone involved has known for years what's going on and AGREED with it by their silence.
No one was watching the store, they were to busy counting your money.
In the 60s it was bennies. In the 70s and 80s .. coke.
The bigger question is .. who cares in America?
Not the fans. They still take their sons to the games and play up what great rolemodels these guys are. Isn't anyone who bought a ticket or baseball cap complicit in the whole affair.
I understand all the hate for Bonds, it's well earned, but he's just one of many and if you want to keep the record book "clean" you'll have to go back a lot farther than Bonds.
He only gives the fans (owners, TV) what they want .. a hero/villan.
He's guilty and so is everyone else.
We're Americans! It's the all-American game. It's who we've been holding up to our children as "heros" for decades .. the Barry Bonds, the Terrell Owens of the world.
Now THAT'S American culture!
Originally posted by impatientSure, I will take a stab at it. As more information comes out about steroid use, one thing is apparent which is that the problem is wide spread. In fact, I watched a documentary about the illegal steroid drug trade. It seems that it is much more lucrative than the other illegal drug trades. Not only that, if you are caught selling them the penalties are not as severe as for selling something like cocaine. What does this tell me? This tells me that there is a big market for this stuff. All major sports are infected with this problem wheather we admit to it or not. If Barry had not taken them, I think he still would have been Hall of Fame material. I still say he would have been one of the leading home run hitters of all time. Barry was just trying to compete on the same level other players were on. Look at the other players who have come out and say they had been juiced. Have they put up numbers like Barry? No. The problem with Barry is that no one like him. He has brought this mainly upon himself, however, and is somewhat deserved. It seems to me that players like Mcguire who broke the single season home run record should be under just as much fire as Barry due to his admitions of using certain inhancing substances. Problem is that everyone loves Mcguire and in no way wants to taint his reputation. In many ways the home run race he had with Sammy Socia helped save baseball after its miserable strike.
Anyone want to try to defend Bonds, or make a case for no asterisks? Would love to see the argument.
How many home runs would Ruth, Aaron etc had if they used steriods? We dont know, that is why they cant be compared. Waiting for MLB to officially say Bonds wont be in the official record books.
To sum up, do I like Barry? No. Do I think he belongs in the Hall of Fame? Yes. If you take a player like Barry out you might as well scratch the entire last decade of baseball from the record books. Playeres like Mcguire should also not be allowed to enter the Hall of Fame if Barry is kept out. I can see them trying to prevent Barry from entering the Hall, but not Mcguire. It will never happen.
Originally posted by whodeyyeah, this is a good point. It's not right to single out Barry Bonds when the indication is that this problem is wide spread. however, I think it must be dealt with, otherwise we'll be talking about astrisks next to records for the next century. how do you compare Barry Bonds to Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron when steroids are involved?
Sure, I will take a stab at it. As more information comes out about steroid use, one thing is apparent which is that the problem is wide spread. In fact, I watched a documentary about the illegal steroid drug trade. It seems that it is much more lucrative than the other illegal drug trades. Not only that, if you are caught selling them the penalties are n ...[text shortened]... see them trying to prevent Barry from entering the Hall, but not Mcguire. It will never happen.
it's my understanding that current baseball policy is for "voluntary drug testing?" ...(is this right?) if it is, it seems to me to invite steroid use.
The whole steroid hysteria is bogus. Players benefit from numerous advances in medical techniques and technology. If someone is a better hitter because they now can have laser surgery on their eyes instead of wearing coke bottle glasses, why is that so different in concept than someone getting more muscle mass by taking steroids? If pitchers can have their careers extended by "Tommy John" surgery for injuries that would have ended careers for virtually all of the 20th Century, why is steroid use now the cause for an "asterisk"? Let the players stick whatever they want in their own bodies; they're grown up multi-millionaires.
Originally posted by no1marauderthis is another good point, but one might argue that eye surgery or shoulder surgery don't "enhance" performance as much as sustain performance, or attempt to restore original abilites. I don't think professional atheletes get surgery if they don't have to, only when injured or deteriorating. Steroids, however, offer the advantage of massively increased strength, which is different.
The whole steroid hysteria is bogus. Players benefit from numerous advances in medical techniques and technology. If someone is a better hitter because they now can have laser surgery on their eyes instead of wearing coke bottle glasses, why is that so different in concept than someone getting more muscle mass by taking steroids? If pitchers can have the ...[text shortened]... players stick whatever they want in their own bodies; they're grown up multi-millionaires.
but a no-holds-barred all-drugs-allowed league would be interesting.
remember when Bo Jackson broke a bat over his head? we need more of that.
Originally posted by Darth SpongeI see no real difference. Steroid use itself doesn't "enhance performance"; it's not like using a loaded bat or a spitball. What it does is increase muscle mass so that you are potentially more physically able to play well. Surgery of the type discussed does the same thing.
this is another good point, but one might argue that eye surgery or shoulder surgery don't "enhance" performance as much as sustain performance, or attempt to restore original abilites. I don't think professional atheletes get surgery if they don't have to, only when injured or deteriorating. Steroids, however, offer the advantage of massively increase ...[text shortened]... nteresting.
remember when Bo Jackson broke a bat over his head? we need more of that.
EDIT: Take a look at the second article here: http://www.sandiegoeye.com/newsarchive.cfm
Originally posted by no1marauderin lieu of that article, I stand corrected.
I see no real difference. Steroid use itself doesn't "enhance performance"; it's not like using a loaded bat or a spitball. What it does is increase muscle mass so that you are potentially more physically able to play well. Surgery of the type discussed does the same thing.
EDIT: Take a look at the second article here: http://www.sandiegoeye.com/newsarchive.cfm
... now I'm at a loss... performance enhacing drugs are against the rules of baseball, but performance enhancing medical operations are not.
maybe do away with baseball altogether. replace with a Thunderdome bunjee jumping chainsaw fights with Blaster.
just a side note, but:
I saw an HBO realsports show about steroids several months ago that said there has never been a scientific study of the effects of steroids. They said the only "evidence" that steroids are "unhealthy" is anecdotal and agenda driven propaganda. interviews with 80+year old steroid users looking good, feelin good, having used steroids for years...
There's an old saying in baseball: "If you're not cheating, you're not trying."
Gaylord Perry is a classic example. He threw a spitball for years, despite it being an illegal pitch in baseball. Plus everyone knew he threw it. Seeing if the umps could catch Perry in the act was all part of the game. And you know what? Today Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame with 314 wins. Do his wins deserve an asterix after them? No, they don't.
Cheating (or trying to cheat) is an integral part of the game. From pitchers with sandpaper, thumbtacks and KY jelly hidden away in various locations, to corked bats, to stealing the signs of the opposing team, to the venerable "phantom tag" during a double play. It's all cheating and it's all part and parcel of the game. I don't see steroids as being any different.
As other people have pointed out, many, many more players than Bonds used steroids during their careers. Steroids don't turn you into a good hitter. They don't make you any better at hitting a breaking ball or driving the ball to the opposite field. The fact is that, with or without steroids, Bonds is one of the very best players to ever play the game of baseball.
I say, stand tall Barry. You're the greatest player of your era and no one can take that away from you.
Originally posted by rwingettVery good. Let the umps run unannounced piss tests. It's all part of the fun! It'll be just like the time they caught Sosa with a corked bat or Rick Honeycutt with a thumbtack.
There's an old saying in baseball: "If you're not cheating, you're not trying."
Gaylord Perry is a classic example. He threw a spitball for years, despite it being an illegal pitch in baseball. Plus everyone knew he threw it. Seeing if the umps could catch Perry in the act was all part of the game. And you know what? Today Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of ...[text shortened]... ry. You're the greatest player of your era and no one can take that away from you.