Don't get old in Scotland...

Originally posted by MacSwain
You have posted:

[b]“communists have no government.”
Scotland has a government…doesn’t this fact preclude you from being a communist by your own definition?

“I'm a communist - I know exactly what freedom means.”
Do you live in Scotland still? If so, where did you experience communism in order to “know exactly what freedom means”?

Of ...[text shortened]... place? TY

btw: you're a helluva chess player, do you attribute this skill to communism? 🙂[/b]

I said I was a communist, not that I was living in a communist system.

I said that in a communist system, there would be no state, not that wherever there are communists there is no government.

Originally posted by Redmike
I said I was a communist, not that I was living in a communist system.

The point of my query was, in this case; How could you "know what freedom means."

* Sorry, forgot this bit: I have been told on these threads (I think by you, I would have to check post records to be sure) that socialism and communism are two totally different things. How do you explain that you, a proclaimed communist, are a member of the socialist party?

Originally posted by MacSwain
The point of my query was, in this case; How could you "know what freedom means."

You don't have to have experienced something to have an understanding of how it will work.

Nobody, as yet, has experienced a communist system.

Originally posted by Redmike
You don't have to have experienced something to have an understanding of how it will work. Nobody, as yet, has experienced a communist system.

Exactly! Brilliant!....You say "I am a communist..so I know what freedom means." So I say, "I am a capatilist..so I know what freedom means."

Neither of us can ever be sure which is the TRUE freedom, since we don't share the others experience.

If we say those things in perfect faith of our correctness, without experiencing the others experience, then we have changed our political views into religion, haven't we? I certainly don't wish to do that, do you?

* Sorry, forgot this bit: I have been told on these threads (I think by you, I would have to check post records to be sure) that socialism and communism are two totally different things. How do you explain that you, a proclaimed communist, are a member of the socialist party?

Originally posted by MacSwain
Exactly! Brilliant!....You say "I am a communist..so I know what freedom means." So I say, "I am a capatilist..so I know what freedom means."

Neither of us can ever be sure which is the TRUE freedom, since we don't share the others experience.

If we say those things in perfect faith of our correctness, without experiencing the others experience, th ...[text shortened]... How do you explain that you, a proclaimed communist, are a member of the socialist party?

OK - I understand what you're getting at.

My original post about freedom was in reply to Wajoma's comment about knowing the meaning of the word.

But I don't think belief in the benefits of a poltical system is like religion. I guess there might be some people who have this sort of political 'faith', but my comunism is based on experience - of capitalism.

I wouldn't say socialism and communism are two different things. Political parties tended to avoid using the 'c' word to avoid connections to the USSR.

Originally posted by Redmike
OK - I understand what you're getting at.

My original post about freedom was in reply to Wajoma's comment about knowing the meaning of the word.

But I don't think belief in the benefits of a poltical system is like religion. I guess there might be some people who have this sort of political 'faith', but my comunism is based on experience - of capitalis ...[text shortened]... . Political parties tended to avoid using the 'c' word to avoid connections to the USSR.

Freedom: To live free from force, threats of force and fraud. i.e Capitalism

What is your definition and why can you not "experience" it in a free society.

Originally posted by Wajoma
Freedom: To live free from force, threats of force and fraud. i.e Capitalism

What is your definition and why can you not "experience" it in a free society.

I'd go along with 'free from force, threats of force and fraud', as a starting definition at least.

Of course you'd experience freedom in a free society - by definition.

Our disagreement is about which system is freer.

Originally posted by Wajoma
It's still not 'free'. Free is free from force. The only way it cvould be considered free is if it is given voluntarily.

Then it wouldn't be free, would it?

Do you have to pay anything in addition to what you would have paid anyway?

No.

Originally posted by Wajoma
Freedom: To live free from force, threats of force and fraud. i.e Capitalism

I'd say that virtually no-one on the planet lives "free from force, threats of force and fraud". Does that mean Capitalism doesn't exist?

Originally posted by Redmike
I'd go along with 'free from force, threats of force and fraud', as a starting definition at least.

Of course you'd experience freedom in a free society - by definition.

Our disagreement is about which system is freer.

But it is hardly living free from force if you must pay for someone elses retirement.

If I choose not to pay for someone elses retirement that is not an initiation of force.

Making a person pay for someone elses retirement against their wishes is going to require specifically a threat of force.

Originally posted by mtthw
Then it wouldn't be free, would it?

Do you have to pay anything in addition to what you would have paid anyway?

No.

That's for me to decide mtthw. I may have other priorities at that stage of my life, family, business etc. Let me decide how to prepare for my retirement. Or to put it another way MIND YOUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS

Originally posted by mtthw
I'd say that virtually no-one on the planet lives "free from force, threats of force and fraud". Does that mean Capitalism doesn't exist?

Whenever two people get together and trade value for value. For this to happen each must recognise that what the other person has to trade is, initially their property. It might be their time or some other justly acquired property.

That is an example of capitalism.

Originally posted by Wajoma
But it is hardly living free from force if you must pay for someone elses retirement.

If I choose not to pay for someone elses retirement that is not an initiation of force.

Making a person pay for someone elses retirement against their wishes is going to require specifically a threat of force.

But that's nothing to do with communism. The practise of funding elderly people's care from taxation is happening in a capitalist economy.

This is just about democracy. A political party stood on a platform which included the privision of free personal care. They won a majority, and implemented the policy. That's how it works.

You can't opt out - I can't say I don't want my taxes spent on nuclear weapons.

Originally posted by Wajoma
That's for me to decide mtthw. I may have other priorities at that stage of my life, family, business etc. Let me decide how to prepare for my retirement. Or to put it another way MIND YOUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS

You live in a society. You gain the benefits of that society. Therefore you also pay the costs. Hence taxation.

Taxation + democracy means that society gets to choose what the money gets spent on. Personally, I'd prefer less of my money to be spent on killing people, but I don't get a say in that either (other than voting every so often).

Originally posted by Wajoma
Whenever two people get together and trade value for value. For this to happen each must recognise that what the other person has to trade is, initially their property. It might be their time or some other justly acquired property.

That is an example of capitalism.

Ah. So nothing to do with "free from force, threats of force and fraud" then, actually.