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How Brazil handled Insurrection vs U.S.

How Brazil handled Insurrection vs U.S.

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Helder Octavio Borges
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@vivify said
Estoy dispuesto a utilizar una fuente de noticias real como la BBC, El País o Al Jazeera. No Twitter.
1. Eu não falo inglês. Nem castelhano. Eu falo português.
2. Seu conceito de fonte confiável é muito questionável. Pra falar mal de Jair Bolsonaro, você usou o vídeo de um comediante militante progressista. Essa fonte é de muito baixa qualidade. Tenta de novo.

Helder Octavio Borges
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@sonhouse said
@Helder-Octavio-Borges
Você se recuperou de suas feridas?
Já, sim, Dan, obrigado.
Como você está? Tem notícias da Heather?

vivify
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@helder-octavio-borges said
1. Eu não falo inglês. Nem castelhano. Eu falo português.
2. Seu conceito de fonte confiável é muito questionável. Pra falar mal de Jair Bolsonaro, você usou o vídeo de um comediante militante progressista. Essa fonte é de muito baixa qualidade. Tenta de novo.
Bill Maher é comentarista político há mais de 30 anos. Maher se estabeleceu como uma autoridade.

Mas ainda respeito o seu pedido de uma fonte mais confiável do que ele. É por isso que peço que respeitem meu pedido de uma fonte mais confiável que o Twitter.

Philokalia

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@vivify said
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-capitol-jan-6-panel-turns-attention-pence-thursdays-hearing-2022-06-16/

Trump pressed, threatened Pence to overturn election

The certification vote on Jan. 6 had become a focus for Trump, who saw it as a last-ditch chance to retain the presidency despite his loss at the polls.


Trump pressured Pence to not certi ...[text shortened]... n 6th to stop the transfer of power, not simply protest. Hence, why it was an inssurrection.
This whole article strikes me as rather odd:

"It is breathtaking that these arguments even were conceived, let alone entertained by the president of the United States," former U.S. Appeals Court Judge J. Michael Luttig, an informal Pence adviser, said.


... Really?

You would think a procedure existed through which a person in authority could halt the validation process of the election in order to investigate anomalies. If there is reason to believe that there was some kind of foul play, then there is a real duty for there to be some office that halts the certification of the election.

I had understood that there might be a legal gray area or a legal theory that would go that the person who validates and signs off on an election has the power to not do so pending abnormalities.

If that is not the case, why is it at all that the Vice President has any role whatsoever? If only SCOTUS or some other agency can halt the validation of the election, why aren't they the ones that sign off on it?

... Also, is it illegal to have a legal theory that turns out to be invalid?

Is it illegal to argue with someone about that and suggest that course of action be taken? LOL, of course not.

It is absurd to suggest that rowdy mob at the Capitol was an insurrection. It was a protest occurring after the most contentious and divisive election in American history with the most voting anomalies and irregularities, and thus it naturally got rowdy.

What is actually a big deal is people pretending that what occurred was a coup or an insurrection because this makes it so that protesting and demanding accountability in the democratic process is now an "insurrection," or that the bar for an insurrection is so low as to equate it with rowdy protests.

Philokalia

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@helder-octavio-borges said
https://twitter.com/shellenberger/status/1752432671144497367/photo/1
Tem alguém aqui que queira falar sobre o Brasil com um... brasileiro?
I have seen this.

I follow Glenn Greenwald. I think democracy & free speech are dying in Brazil. Greenwald says that it has become a nation where anti-democratic forces like Soros and Washington elites are experimenting on how far they can go to shut down free speech and elections.

What do you think?

vivify
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@philokalia said
I have seen this.

I follow Glenn Greenwald. I think democracy & free speech are dying in Brazil. Greenwald says that it has become a nation where anti-democratic forces like Soros and Washington elites are experimenting on how far they can go to shut down free speech and elections.

What do you think?
So the guy in his Twitter link is an English speaker?

Helder Octavio Borges - this poster is full crap.

vivify
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2 edits

@philokalia said
You would think a procedure existed through which a person in authority could halt the validation process of the election in order to investigate anomalies
A procedure does exist.

Trump used the Department of Justice to investigate any "anomalies" and Trump's own hand-picked Attorney General said publicly that there was no evidence of any widespread election fraud.

Why didn't Trump listen to his own Attorney General? Because an "investigation" is not what Trump wanted. His goal was to overturn the election. Hence, why Trump incited insurrection.

Philokalia

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@vivify said
A procedure does exist.

Trump used the Department of Justice to investigate any "anomalies" and Trump's own hand-picked Attorney General said publicly that there was no evidence of any widespread election fraud.

Why didn't Trump listen to his own Attorney General? Because an "investigation" is not what Trump wanted. His goal was to overturn the election. Hence, why Trump incited insurrection.
The issue with the US election is always the same, and it has been a source of headaches since the massive electoral corruption in Chicago in the 80s and the instance of corruption in Philadelphia:

You cannot catch corruption once the ballots have been inserted because the only people who can actually validate a vote is the person who cast it. Nobody else has access to this information.

The only thing that the investigations can begin to tell us is whether or not they detected a very limited set of indicators of corruption, but ultimately, that was not done, even though there was all manner of suspicious occurrences and anomalies.

None of these investigations proved that voter fraud absolutely did not happen, but only that the current accountability procedures are completely inadequate - especially for a year chock full of ballot harvesting via absentee voting schemes.

Most people do not understand this - naturally, the people who understand it the least are those who have political incentive to not understand it or to try to have any familiarity with it.

Philokalia

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@vivify said
So the guy in his Twitter link is an English speaker?

Helder Octavio Borges - this poster is full crap.
He was probably searching out tweets that were in English covering the Brazil election and using some amount of translator services, I guess.

I think you are upset that he seems to likely not agree with you, and he's a real Brazilian who has come to trash your thread of cap on Brazil.

vivify
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@philokalia said
You cannot catch corruption once the ballots have been inserted
Incorrect:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/28/politics/recordings-trump-team-fake-elector-ballots/index.html

Recordings, emails show how Trump team flew fake elector ballots to DC in final push to overturn 2020 election

Plenty of of corruption was found on Trump's part.

Philokalia

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@vivify said
Incorrect:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/28/politics/recordings-trump-team-fake-elector-ballots/index.html

Recordings, emails show how Trump team flew fake elector ballots to DC in final push to overturn 2020 election

Plenty of of corruption was found on Trump's part.
This actually has nothing to do with the election in terms of fake ballots being inserted into the system...

The Guardian does far better journalism than CNN and also happens to be legitimately progressive, you should check them out more... And they provide this analysis:

The three fake electors charged have pleaded not guilty. Their attorneys argued in September that they were not fake electors, but instead “contingent” electors who could be used should the courts overturn Biden’s win, the Associated Press reported. The three are trying to get their case moved from state court in Georgia to a federal court, arguing they were acting as federal officers who were keeping an avenue open for Trump depending on what happened in the courts.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/22/trump-fake-elector-scheme-case-tracker

So what are the "fake electors?"

They are a bunch of Republicans that were rushed to fill in for valid GOP electors in the event that voter fraud was discovered or the courts were to need to certify the election on behalf of Pres. Trump due to some other mix up.

The fact that CNN is referring to this as a coup attempt is alarming, but that is generally what you get from such poor quality journalism...

You shouldn't base your opinions on this kind of material, my friend!

vivify
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4 edits

@philokalia said
You shouldn't base your opinions on this kind of material, my friend!
You should base your opinion on the outcome of the trial instead of just what their lawyers claimed in court:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-fake-electors-wisconsin-acknowledge-biden-won-election-rcna128390

In a deal announced Wednesday, the so-called fake electors agreed to issue a statement acknowledging that their efforts were "part of an attempt to improperly overturn the 2020 presidential election results

The point stands: corruption on the side of Trump was found.

Philokalia

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@vivify said
You should base your opinion on the outcome of the trial instead of just what their lawyers claimed in court:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-fake-electors-wisconsin-acknowledge-biden-won-election-rcna128390

In a deal announced Wednesday, the so-called fake electors agreed to issue a statement acknowledging that their efforts were "part of an a ...[text shortened]... presidential election results

The point stands: corruption on the side of Trump was found.
Nah, it is obvious what happened and how little credit the DOJ has after they gave some ridiculous Proud Boys 10+ year sentences for planning a peaceful sit-in protest of the Capitol and had Congress declare it an 'insurrection!'

The whole thing out of the American elites has been nutty - it's a doomed country unless the swamp gets drained.

But what is surprising is the progressive left is so morally bankrupt and unable to remotely influence the politicians they send to Washington for the good.

Suzianne
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@philokalia said
This whole article strikes me as rather odd:

"It is breathtaking that these arguments even were conceived, let alone entertained by the president of the United States," former U.S. Appeals Court Judge J. Michael Luttig, an informal Pence adviser, said.


... Really?

You would think a procedure existed through which a person in authority could halt th ...[text shortened]... n "insurrection," or that the bar for an insurrection is so low as to equate it with rowdy protests.
I can't believe you really think any of this. Everyone realizes that Donald Trump followed his course of action only for personal, self-serving reasons, to illegally keep hold of power.

Explain to me again how Republicans can be Christians? I mean with a straight face.

Suzianne
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@philokalia said
Nah, it is obvious what happened and how little credit the DOJ has after they gave some ridiculous Proud Boys 10+ year sentences for planning a peaceful sit-in protest of the Capitol and had Congress declare it an 'insurrection!'

The whole thing out of the American elites has been nutty - it's a doomed country unless the swamp gets drained.

But what is surprising i ...[text shortened]... ally bankrupt and unable to remotely influence the politicians they send to Washington for the good.
You sit there and have the gall to claim that the left is morally bankrupt? Seriously?? It was your party that was busted trying to circumvent the Constitution to stay in power. How can supposedly Christian Republicans do this? Simple, they are either anti American, or they are not Christian.

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