23 Jun 12
Originally posted by FMFI never confined the discussion to ADHD and you know it, but you are attempting to. Stop omitting important parts of my quote. Your tactics are obvious to me and I won't allow you to omit important parts of my statement and get away with it.
You are dodging my question which was a direct response to what you said in your post. Here it is again: Do you reckon children diagnosed as having a psychiatric or development disorder like ADHD should be subjected to "very harsh corporal punishment"? Let's widen it a bit: What about autistic children? Or children with clinical depression? What about mentally disabled children?
23 Jun 12
Originally posted by FMFAnswer the question.
I contend that "corporal punishment" is physical violence. So, yes, as far as I am concerned, you have been talking about adults beating children in some of your posts above.
If a child is beating another child how would you teach that child not to beat other children if he is desensitized to other methods of punishment? Teaching a child that inflicting pain on others might result in him feeling pain back is not necessarily a bad lesson to learn if other methods don't work. Would you allow the beatings to continue? What about fairness to the child victim?
23 Jun 12
Originally posted by Metal BrainA violent child needs to be restrained, removed or excluded, not beaten.
If a child is beating another child how would you teach that child not to beat other children if he is desensitized to other methods of punishment?
Teaching a child that inflicting pain on others might result in him feeling pain back is not necessarily a bad lesson to learn if other methods don't work.
An adult inflicting pain on a child teaches it that it's ok for adults to inflict pain on a child, and that inflicting pain is what adults do when they become angry and frustrated.
Would you allow the beatings to continue?
Would you just keep beating the child if your violence didn't work?
23 Jun 12
Originally posted by Metal BrainI did. I am typing as fast as I can.
Answer the question.
If a child is beating another child how would you teach that child not to beat other children if he is desensitized to other methods of punishment? Teaching a child that inflicting pain on others might result in him feeling pain back is not necessarily a bad lesson to learn if other methods don't work. Would you allow the beatings to continue? What about fairness to the child victim?
23 Jun 12
Originally posted by Metal BrainYou mentioned ADHD specifically. So my question to you is, do you recommend physical violence being used against children who are "extremely impulsive and will not listen" because they have developmental disorders like ADDH, autism, clinical depression? You brought up the factor of tackling the effects of a developmental disorder by inflicting pain. I am asking you about it, not trying to "get away" with anything.
I never confined the discussion to ADHD and you know it, but you are attempting to. Stop omitting important parts of my quote. Your tactics are obvious to me and I won't allow you to omit important parts of my statement and get away with it.
23 Jun 12
Originally posted by FMFI agree those methods are preferable, but what if the child victim of the other child is sibling and the beatings continue despite your best efforts?
A violent child needs to be restrained, removed or excluded, not beaten.
They have to live together. You can't keep them separated forever. Would you allow the beatings to continue because you are convinced your ineffective methods might work eventually? What about fairness to the child victim? Will you risk that child getting a concussion because you insist on prolonged trial and error experiments?
23 Jun 12
Originally posted by FMFNow you are trying to twist the quote and imply the extremely impulsive children are the ones with ADHD. That is a despicable tactic. You know full well I used the word "or". Stop trying to alter my quotes. These are the tactics of a bully and you know better, "tough guy".
You mentioned ADHD specifically. So my question to you is, do you recommend physical violence being used against children who are "extremely impulsive and will not listen" because they have developmental disorders like ADDH, autism, clinical depression? You brought up the factor of tackling the effects of a developmental disorder by inflicting pain. I am asking you about it, not trying to "get away" with anything.
23 Jun 12
Originally posted by Metal BrainIf the child is psychopathic to a degree as you seem to be suggesting, then yes they would have to be separated. That would address the "fairness to the child victim" issue, I suppose. Perhaps seeking treatment for the violent kid would be "fairness" too. In my experience, beating a child or inflicting pain just shows them that violence/inflicting pain is what people do. The fear that they might feel when they are themselves being beaten or caused pain, is just as likely to intensify the violent lashing out or the victimization of the sibling. I don't even endorse it as a "last resort" as some do.
I agree those methods are preferable, but what if the child victim of the other child is sibling and the beatings continue despite your best efforts?
They have to live together. You can't keep them separated forever. Would you allow the beatings to continue because you are convinced your ineffective methods might work eventually? What about fairness t ...[text shortened]... sk that child getting a concussion because you insist on prolonged trial and error experiments?
23 Jun 12
3 edits
Originally posted by Metal BrainOk, whatever you say. But forgive me if I ask again, because you brought ADHD up, not me, and you seem determined to talk of it no more. Here: Do you recommend "very harsh" physical violence being used against children with developmental disorders like ADHD, autism, clinical depression?
Now you are trying to twist the quote and imply the extremely impulsive children are the ones with ADHD. That is a despicable tactic. You know full well I used the word "or". Stop trying to alter my quotes. These are the tactics of a bully and you know better, "tough guy".
Here's what triggered my question: Metal Brain: ...some children have ADHD or be extremely impulsive and will not listen and their parents. These parents may have their children desensitized to some forms of corporal punishment that are seemingly harsh. These children may need [what you may consider] very harsh corporal punishment to curb their bad behavior. [A verbatim quote, not twisted at all]
23 Jun 12
2 edits
Originally posted by Metal BrainI'll ask this one again as you seem intent on dodging it and yet you raised the point [and it's a verbatim quote, not twisted at all]. What is this no-details babysitting anecdote about? What methods did you resort to that you thought you would never resort to?
You should babysit a really difficult kid sometime. You may find yourself resorting to methods you never thought you would..
23 Jun 12
Originally posted by FMFQuite often it is what people do. The child will learn that while attending school just as everybody does. It is not as though I'm endorsing violence as a preferred method and you know that. I'm just saying that the safety of another child is more important than a trial and error method that may not be effective.
In my experience, beating a child or inflicting pain just shows them that violence/inflicting pain is what people do.
What the child may learn is that justice cannot be eluded so easily and that it can be swift when it is deserved. To rule out corporal punishment in every circumstance is a mistake in my opinion. When I got whacks on the butt when I was in school it did not turn me into a violent person. It was not even because I was hurting anybody. I was just disrupting the classroom and annoying the teacher.
There is no evidence that corporal punishment turns all people to violence later in life. I believe that in severe cases it likely does, but I did not turn into a violent person because of Mr. Neff's paddle whacks on my butt. Your belief that corporal punishment teaches all kids to be violent later in life is pure theory. I am living proof that your theory is questionable.
All of your arguments are based on unproven theory. If you can show me some statistical data that is compelling I will look at it.
23 Jun 12
Originally posted by Metal BrainNo one has suggested it does.
There is no evidence that corporal punishment turns all people to violence later in life.
All of your arguments are based on unproven theory. If you can show me some statistical data that is compelling I will look at it.
Your arguments are proven theories then?
23 Jun 12
Originally posted by Metal BrainWait. So you are only advocating corporal punishment in cases where the safety of one child is endangered by another?
It is not as though I'm endorsing violence as a preferred method and you know that. I'm just saying that the safety of another child is more important than a trial and error method that may not be effective.
What the child may learn is that justice cannot be eluded so easily and that it can be swift when it is deserved.
Who is to say it is "justice"? Who is to say it is "deserved"? What is the outcome of parents beating young children and inflicting pain on them when it is 'unjust' and not 'deserved'?