@moonbus saidYou are right, my inherent knowledge is limited, I probably could not define socialism on a debate stage. I guess in my limited mind, that anything short of capitalism (which is heaven) smacks of socialism. China, Lao,Vietnam and Cuba are listed as socialist. Are you implying that socialism 'works' just because it is being implemented somewhere? The people are in slavery and dont even know it, so, to them, maybe it is working. So, then, are you saying we need to do 'some' socialism? Tell, me, where would be start? What area would we begin in? Please Temper any response with my old idiom, Some people work harder than others. An emotional answer probably won't have traction, facts are better. If I say the phrase "Eat what you kill", it could elicit emotion.
A few comments on the article you cited:
1. The Heritage Foundation, whose ideology is based on the policies of Ronald Reagan, has a right-wing bias which does not want to find successful examples of socialism. The Heritage Foundation, as advisors to conservative presidents, has a political agenda which consists in ensuring that the socialist experiment is never tried in t ...[text shortened]... ver try it anyway. Vested interests will ensure that the experiment never gets off the ground there.
For the record, AJoe1 has always said that if we could start from scratch, today, that the government should support the 40 million downtrodden desperate broken people in our society. Food clothng shelter meds, the works. Set that all up, and then every one else be independent. With that, why would we need socialism, whatever that is??
22 Aug 20
@averagejoe1 saidThere is considerable opinion floating around that China today is effectively running on a Capitalist system being controlled by an Authoritarian leadership that is Communist in name only.
You are right, my inherent knowledge is limited, I probably could not define socialism on a debate stage. I guess in my limited mind, that anything short of capitalism (which is heaven) smacks of socialism. China, Lao,Vietnam and Cuba are listed as socialist. Are you implying that socialism 'works' just because it is being implemented somewhere? The people are in slaver ...[text shortened]... and then every one else be independent. With that, why would we need socialism, whatever that is??
@mghrn55 saidGood Lord, mgh, it's not opinion, my man, it's fact. And you described cogently.
There is considerable opinion floating around that China today is effectively running on a Capitalist system being controlled by an Authoritarian leadership that is Communist in name only.
China has 819 BILLIONAIRES, and growing, more than any other country.
Did you see the super yacht Bannon was arrested on? Yup, owned by a Chinese
$billionaire.
---------------------
This is my opinion: China realized that the country/government can never be the
powerful country it aspired to be without the all important ingredient, $$money.
They have invested a lot in industries to get their economic engine up and running.
And what goes hand-in-hand with a rich nation seeking power? a MILITARY.
Watch the flip out for China in the next 20 years. Like the elevator operator says, "Going UP"
22 Aug 20
@Earl-of-Trumps
We have been saying for a while now, learn Mandarin.
The time of influence of the US is gone down the tubes thanks to Trump.
When his sorry ass is gone, hopefully in November-January, Biden will have a MESS to clean up if we ever can considering the damage to our world reputation caused 100% by Trump.
He pulls troops out of Germany exactly how Putin wants.
He says NOTHING about the bounty put on American soldiers exactly how Putin wants.
He says Russian interference with our elections both in 16 and now in 20 AGAIN and Trump says HOAX, fake news, just like what Putin wants.
Nancy Pelosi said it correctly "All roads lead to Putin'
and that is a FACT.
Putin has SOMETHING strong over Trump and that also is a fact jack.
I say Trump is a TRAITOR nothing less.
He is either consciously or unknowingly an asset of Putin.
And all your mewling about how nobody has proof, the actions of Trump speaks for themselves.
@sonhouse
1. He pulls troops out of Germany exactly how Putin wants.
Right, he put them in POLAND on Russia's border. Exactly how,,, Oh WAIT!
2. He says NOTHING about the bounty put on American soldiers exactly how Putin wants.
Lie. WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Donald Trump on Thursday vowed to retaliate if other countries were found to have offered bounties for attacks on U.S. troops in Afghanistan, - Yahoo.
3. He says Russian interference with our elections both in 16 and now in 20 AGAIN and Trump says HOAX, fake news, just like what Putin wants
It's FAKE news - get used to it.
22 Aug 20
@sonhouse saidLot of opining here. Facts carry more weight. This is a debate.
@Earl-of-Trumps
We have been saying for a while now, learn Mandarin.
The time of influence of the US is gone down the tubes thanks to Trump.
When his sorry ass is gone, hopefully in November-January, Biden will have a MESS to clean up if we ever can considering the damage to our world reputation caused 100% by Trump.
He pulls troops out of Germany exactly how Putin wants ...[text shortened]... in.
And all your mewling about how nobody has proof, the actions of Trump speaks for themselves.
23 Aug 20
@averagejoe1 saidNot to belabor, but Trump cowed all those loser countries into paying their AGREED UPON contributions to NATO, ($400 Billion). Did I say $400 Billion?!!?? They had been welching for years, though Germany has yet to do it. Germany will not pay their share. Still a little Hitler-esque going on? I have it on good authority that that is why Kazetnagorra has disappeared. He is ashamed and embarrassed. He has realized how important we are on the world scene.
Lot of opining here. Facts carry more weight. This is a debate.
Thanks again, Trump. Accomplishment #79, as I recall. Look at the list,,,,can you see uncle Joe doing any of these accomplishments with Kamala and AOC pushing his ass around? Jesus. Thanks, Trump.
23 Aug 20
@AverageJoe1 This was in response to Sonhouse above saying Trump has ruined our reputation. Hey......Sonhhouse....everybody, ....they all take note when he enters a room, just a fact. Don't you hate it? Proof...they ponied up $400Billion. Good night, sleeping well knowing his military has me covered.
23 Aug 20
@averagejoe1 saidThey all take note when he enters a room. Check those wallets!
@AverageJoe1 This was in response to Sonhouse above saying Trump has ruined our reputation. Hey......Sonhhouse....everybody, ....they all take note when he enters a room, just a fact. Don't you hate it? Proof...they ponied up $400Billion. Good night, sleeping well knowing his military has me covered.
23 Aug 20
@averagejoe1 saidChina never was socialist. It went from dictatorship to dictatorship.
So they realized that Socialism does NOT work? Am i missing something?
@averagejoe1 saidWhy does anyone need socialism, you ask. I would answer that the question misses the point. No one needs socialism. No one needs capitalism either. No one needed serfdom or feudalism for that matter. Humans do, however, need some sort of orderly and stable social arrangements in order to survive at a level above "poor, nasty, brutish, and short." Socialism is one option along a spectrum of available social arrangements, some of which blend into others—-pure forms are seldom seen in practice. Of course, socialism is not a panacea which solves all problems, but neither is capitalism.
You are right, my inherent knowledge is limited, I probably could not define socialism on a debate stage. I guess in my limited mind, that anything short of capitalism (which is heaven) smacks of socialism. China, Lao,Vietnam and Cuba are listed as socialist. Are you implying that socialism 'works' just because it is being implemented somewhere? The people are in slaver ...[text shortened]... and then every one else be independent. With that, why would we need socialism, whatever that is??
The countries where socialism, in some form or other, works have several things in common:
1. A low level of corruption in government with a correspondingly high level of public trust in government. This presupposes a high level of technical competence and fiscal responsibility in government.
2. A high level of cooperation among government, industry, and labor, whereby long-term working conditions and salaries are agreed upon and encoded in law, whereby workers cannot be fired just because some factory owner wants to increase his profit margin by laying off workers from time to time.
3. A high level of compliance in the general public not to take advantage of generous social benefit programs and consume more benefits than a) they are entitled to by law or b) can be financed by taxation. This presupposes a high level of individual responsibility and social conscience in the public at large.
Socialism is bound to fail if any one of the above-mentioned conditions is not met. For example, when socialism is imposed by force through some revolutionary faction on an unwilling public and an unwilling industrial base; this necessarily leads to secret police and gulags, and consequent flight of educated and highly trained personnel (e.g., Pol Pot's regime). For example, when a government is manifestly incompetent to manage economic affairs and practices kleptocracy (e.g., Robt. Mugabe's regime). Where a seed falls on barren ground, it is not the seed which fails, but the underlying conditions which fail to nourish it.
To give some examples of where socialism definitely would not work, and the reason why:
The USA. Not one of the above three conditions is met.*
The UK. Perhaps only the 3d condition is met; the 1st and 2d are not met. Public confidence in government in the UK is low, more due to a perceived lack competence than to outright corruption.
Footnote:
Welfare, as it is implemented in the USA, is not socialist, not in way shape or form. It was not designed to help the poor. It was designed to create and maintain a poor class of chronically under-paid and under-utilized labor, a pool of unskilled workers the factory owners could draw on as and when they needed, to hire and fire at will. Welfare in America is capitalist through and through. The standard work is "Regulating the Poor", by Francis Piven and Richard Clowerd.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/[WORD TOO LONG]
23 Aug 20
@handyandy saidSonhouse, i leave my wallet at home when i know i will be in a room of liberals, parasites, the dependent types. Not likely that libs think that way about conservatives. Could you tell us why that is?
They all take note when he enters a room. Check those wallets!
23 Aug 20
@averagejoe1 saidYes.
So they realized that Socialism does NOT work? Am i missing something?
Point being that authoritarian regimes always try to gain a foothold in any society.
In the past, Communism was an easy target for incubation.
It seems that those with authoritarian leanings have also used the free market capitalism system as a target, as communism has been pretty much discredited.
The debate between free markets and socialism will continue.
But, the point being made here is that the real threat here is to democracy.
Trump definitely has authoritarian leanings. He is a threat.
At the moment, I believe the American political system has strong enough checks and balances to withstand this threat.
But for how long ?
If Trump, gets another 4 years, I am concerned that the debate between socialism and free market capitalism won’t matter.
23 Aug 20
@moonbus said‘Fine line definitions’ can be tedious. Call it anything. For all I know, you probably find dictatorships to be cool. Everyone is equal and the government takes care of them.
China never was socialist. It went from dictatorship to dictatorship.
Hey libs, Could Steve Jobs had pulled off what he pulled off, were he living in one of the countries with a system like you want us to have?