Justice?

@no1marauder said
From the NY Times:

"Public prosecutors in Germany have indicted a 95-year-old woman for her role supporting the Nazi killing machinery as a secretary in a concentration camp, charging her with 10,000 counts of being an accessory to murder, and complicity in attempted murders.

The indictment against the woman, identified only as Irmgard F. under German privacy laws, ...[text shortened]... oing mundane duties. Charging her with 10,000 counts of murder seems ridiculous to me.

Thoughts?

Methinks this has less to do with law and more to do with politics.

@kevcvs57 said
Are you trying to equate the crimes of a dodgy president and his staff with what the Nazis did to the Jews and other minorities in Europe?
I don’t expect to hear you use the phrase apples and oranges for a while.

not at all trying to compare the crimes. was I supposed to?

I am trying to compare situations where the secretary is part of the illegal process, that's all.

you're weird.
--------------------------

EDIT to add:

Hey Kev, how about a Mafioso boss, a Don, that has a secretary. And the Don orders the hit of several members of a rival gang.

Would that make you happy? because this has surely happened.

@earl-of-trumps said
not at all trying to compare the crimes. was I supposed to?

I am trying to compare situations where the secretary is part of the illegal process, that's all.

you're weird.
--------------------------

EDIT to add:

Hey Kev, how about a Mafioso boss, a Don, that has a secretary. And the Don orders the hit of several members of a rival gang.

Would that make you happy? because this has surely happened.

Still not trying to compare apples and oranges that’s good 🙄
If she is part of a criminal enterprise and that can be proven that she was aware of the criminal deeds of her boss then yes definitely guilty.
I’ll say again the only mitigation for the secretary in question is wether she was coerced by fear of the consequences of not working in this concentration camp.
Someone has mentioned Jews working in concentration camps rather than going to the gas chambers themselves. I would argue that they were also victims and should not be judged the way that someone volunteering to assist in the operational running of such a place should be judged.
“If you fly with the crows you get shot with the crows”
Wiktionary

@mchill said
Methinks this has less to do with law and more to do with politics.

I suspect the same though I have no in-depth knowledge of German politics. Are local prosecutors elected? Is it common for prosecutors there to run for higher offices (it's considered a highly favorable addition to a political resume in the US)?

@kevcvs57 said
Still not trying to compare apples and oranges that’s good 🙄
If she is part of a criminal enterprise and that can be proven that she was aware of the criminal deeds of her boss then yes definitely guilty.
I’ll say again the only mitigation for the secretary in question is wether she was coerced by fear of the consequences of not working in this concentration camp.
Someone ...[text shortened]... such a place should be judged.
“If you fly with the crows you get shot with the crows”
Wiktionary

As already cited, the commandant of the camp got 9 years in prison and a convicted guard got a suspended sentence. Surely any level of culpability of a teenage secretary is considerably less and a prosecution (in a juvenile court of a 95 year old) which will result in no actual punishment is a waste of time and resources.

That would be true even if I accepted your view that people doing mundane tasks at such facilities like secretaries, janitors, cooks, etc. have criminal responsibility for murders in them which I don't. Generally, a conspirator must actively agree with other conspirators to commit a future crime (https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-charges/conspiracy.html) and surely such employees did not. And unlike guards who actually committed murders, they did no direct illegal acts. So I do not agree that such persons are legitimate targets for prosecution.

@shavixmir said
What I wrote. They want her to own up to knowing what was happening.
It’s to show people that you can run, but can’t hide from justice.

Her level of responsibility is minimal. But she didn’t come forward during earlier trials to explain what was happening either.

I’m not sure if it’s the route I would take,
But I understand the drive.
Especially with the extreme right on the rise.

I do not think the criminal justice system should be used for such a purpose.

@no1marauder said
I do not think the criminal justice system should be used for such a purpose.

Its obvious many people here suspect "political motivation". You disagree with me saying its the result of hyper charged anti Nazism/White supremacy drum beating ( its a global thing- Germany especially isn't in an echo chamber hidden away from it ), but you agree with them when they say it is political? What is the difference I'm missing?

@joe-shmo said
Its obvious many people here suspect "political motivation". You disagree with me saying its the result of hyper charged anti Nazism/White supremacy drum beating ( its a global thing- Germany especially isn't in an echo chamber hidden away from it ), but you agree with them when they say it is political? What is the difference I'm missing?

I asked for evidence supporting your claim.

Do you have any?

I have my suspicions which is why I asked some questions regarding German prosecutors. That's a bit different from what you have done i.e. making a kneejerk assumption based on your ideological biases.

@no1marauder said
As already cited, the commandant of the camp got 9 years in prison and a convicted guard got a suspended sentence. Surely any level of culpability of a teenage secretary is considerably less and a prosecution (in a juvenile court of a 95 year old) which will result in no actual punishment is a waste of time and resources.

That would be true even if I accepted your view ...[text shortened]... no direct illegal acts. So I do not agree that such persons are legitimate targets for prosecution.

I’ve already stated that I believe justice in relation to the Holocaust / Shoah is unattainable. But the German authorities have the right and arguably the duty to reiterate the illegality of what happened in those places by processing those who facilitated or colluded in the running of them through the court system. It’s not about punishing a 95 yr old woman but it’s possibly Germany’s last opportunity make a statement about where it and it’s institutions stand in relation to the third reich.
So yes of course it’s political, the Nuremberg trials were political, but this woman is not a victim of injustice, whilst she may have been a victim of circumstance, that’s fir a German court to decide.

@no1marauder said
I asked for evidence supporting your claim.

Do you have any?

I have my suspicions which is why I asked some questions regarding German prosecutors. That's a bit different from what you have done i.e. making a kneejerk assumption based on your ideological biases.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/21/magazine/anti-semitism-germany.html

According to the article there appears to be some discrepancy between the Jewish community and police as to the predominant perpetrators of recent attacks. Namely, White Supremist seem to be taking the wrap for Muslim extremists among the victims surveyed.

It seems logical to me Germany will work extra hard to absolve itself of "its own" kind anti Semitism ( Nazism ). They don't care so much about the other kind ( Muslim Extremism ), because its only the "Nazism drum" being beat on the world stage.

@no1marauder said
I suspect the same though I have no in-depth knowledge of German politics. Are local prosecutors elected? Is it common for prosecutors there to run for higher offices (it's considered a highly favorable addition to a political resume in the US)?

No. He’s appointed.

@joe-shmo said
Its obvious many people here suspect "political motivation". You disagree with me saying its the result of hyper charged anti Nazism/White supremacy drum beating ( its a global thing- Germany especially isn't in an echo chamber hidden away from it ), but you agree with them when they say it is political? What is the difference I'm missing?

Dude.
History!

Every sane person is rabidly anti-nazi.
And in German law, they’re especially harsh on people who try to lessen Germany’s role in it all.

It’s not hard to grasp.

And no. This isn’t political. What political goals are achieved at looking to prosecute an old woman?

It’s about her not owning up to her part and not stepping forward to help prosecute worse people.

“To stand by and say nothing is to be guilty.”

It’s all tied in.
Now, you obviously think it’s normal and valid to hold neo-nazi opinions and white supremist opinions... well, welcome to the real world.
It’s not normal. It’s quite often illegal and people who openly promote these opinions are generally shunned and not invited to birthday parties.

@shavixmir said
Dude.
History!

Every sane person is rabidly anti-nazi.
And in German law, they’re especially harsh on people who try to lessen Germany’s role in it all.

It’s not hard to grasp.

And no. This isn’t political. What political goals are achieved at looking to prosecute an old woman?

It’s about her not owning up to her part and not stepping forward to help prosecute ...[text shortened]... people who openly promote these opinions are generally shunned and not invited to birthday parties.

What "worse people"? The commandant she worked for was convicted over 60 years ago and only got 9 years in prison. Is she to be punished now because she presumably didn't testify against him more than half a century ago?

If so, I do not find this a valid or just use of the criminal justice system.

@joe-shmo said
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/21/magazine/anti-semitism-germany.html

According to the article there appears to be some discrepancy between the Jewish community and police as to the predominant perpetrators of recent attacks. Namely, White Supremist seem to be taking the wrap for Muslim extremists among the victims surveyed.

It seems logical to me Germany will work e ...[text shortened]... e other kind ( Muslim Extremism ), because its only the "Nazism drum" being beat on the world stage.

Sure, nobody makes any big deal out of Muslim "extremism".

What planet are you from again?

@no1marauder said
Sure, nobody makes any big deal out of Muslim "extremism".

What planet are you from again?

Then explain the discrepancy in the article? The majority of Jewish victims are reporting Muslim extremism from mass migration as the rise of anti Semitism, and Germany is sparing no expense to punish a 95 year old Nazi secretary with outlandish "eye catching" charges like accessory to murder 75 years ago - 10,000 counts!