19 Jul 06
Originally posted by 7ate9In the words of the King:
i got jail RINGING in my ear... i'm gonna leave you now darling. you're toooo disturbing for me!
The warden threw a party in the county jail.
The prison band was there and they began to wail.
The band was jumpin and the joint began to swing.
You shouldve heard those knocked out jailbirds sing.
Lets rock, everybody, lets rock.
Everybody in the whole cell block
20 Jul 06
Originally posted by PalynkaBut we are letting them decide on some things and not others already. Higher education for instance. That's the age they're supposed to know what they want to be for the rest of their lifes. That's ridiculous if you ask me. When it comes to choosing further education a child that age is usually guided by parents and a councelor at school (hopefully considering his/her own wishes). If you ask me, that's a far bigger decision to be made than simply humping in the hay for however many minutes. We make too big a deal out of sex. Only if someone is forced into it, or one of the involved hasn't really learned to consider the consequences, can it be considered wrong. In every other case you must accept that you're not one of the involved and only offer your support if they have problems (if you're a friend or relative).
It would be hypocritical to consider they are equipped to decide for themselves on actions for some things and not for others.
Laws of legal consent will punish a 21 year old man having a loveaffair with a 15 year old girl. And it will more or less legally stupidify the girl, declare her completely unable to make her own decisions. It doesn't matter if they are actually good for each other. Is that your idea of protection?
And how does it really protect a girl or boy whom has been raped? (Rape include situations where the victim didn't specifically say no, but never quite participated either and where other circumstances such as fear or abused trust is involved.) We have (at least in Sweden) laws against rape, and a system to care for rape victims. Those laws apply to any age I'd think. What is needed to set things straight, is not more prohibiting laws, but more discussion in public until we can find a way to be more precise when we judge things like this. That's my opinion.
Psychologists have come a long way now in being able to detect if a child has been coerced into something (s)he didn't want to do. If, after having been examined by independant psychologists, the child and the "grownup" are considered healthy (or good for each other), I think those psychologists may have the best solution to the problem that would minimise damage to either one. Tearing them apart can lead them to take desperate actions that will only end up harming everyone all the more.
If you forget that a child has a brain of his/her own, and that (s)he may also have those desires in him/her, you are making a crucial mistake. That will only lead the same astray to do stupid things that could have been avoided with a simple, logical discussion about sex. I'm not saying to leave people hanging unprotected by the law and let pedophiles treat themselves like it was fourth of July. I'm saying consider the possibility that these things sometimes happen in consent and instead try to guide people you love and care for right (like you would with education).
Finally, right (in my opinion) would be to let the child know that you're there for him/her if (s)he needs it, you won't be all judgemental about it and try to make him/her consider all the consequences before doing anything. Right is not to say this is right and this is wrong and that's the end of it. That's abusive if you think about it (no matter what your intentions).
20 Jul 06
Originally posted by stockenYou choose your higher education at an age 15 or less in Sweden? I don't think so. Even if you want to start focusing on a subject, you still have 3 years to change your mind. Even after starting university you can change your mind.
But we are letting them decide on some things and not others already. Higher education for instance. That's the age they're supposed to know what they want to be for the rest of their lifes. That's ridiculous if you ask me. When it comes to choosing further education a child that age is usually guided by parents and a councelor at school (hopefully co ...[text shortened]... f it. That's abusive if you think about it (no matter what your intentions).
Again you avoid the problem of consent given by a child to an adult not meaning the same as consent given by an adult. An adult is an authoritative figure to a child and therefore saying yes is not equivalent of agreeing with it or even desiring it. Not to mention that they're easily manipulated.
As for the 21 year old example, it is as examples are. One can find one for every situation. I think that the proportion of 15 year olds which are mature missing out on sex with older people for one year is a decent price to pay to protect that proportion that are still not ready. And they may still not be ready at 16, but the proportion diminishes rapidly and, I agree with you there, we must not confuse protection with tyranny.
As for rape, well, rape is rape independently of age (although with child abuse there's an aggravation) so that isn't the issue here. The issue is what consent means when it is given by a child. An issue that you keep avoiding.