11 Sep 09
Originally posted by duecerL. = Limited atonement (propitiated the father for some sins, not all)
By accepting 1, 2 and 5, then you are truly a Calvinist, for they are the heart of calvinistic theology. I know of T.U.L.I.P., but give it little or no thought as it is poorly rendered theology; it prays on the fears and prejudices of human nature, and invites those that want to feel special rather than those who want a serious life changing experience throug ...[text shortened]... pm, and I gladly would entertain a discussion, for I find the subject matter quite interesting.
and I. = Irresistible grace (Individual volition is coerced) are plain BS.
11 Sep 09
Originally posted by SuzianneNever mind; I doubt our minds will ever meet.
I already did that in my last post.
Spin it how you wish.
"Doing the same thing" means nothing. "Defining it" means nothing. The entity they all worship is the same one. They can disagree until the cows come home how to react to it, but it doesn't change the fact that it's the same dude. Individuals often do not know what they're worshipping, I ca ...[text shortened]... t[/i] it is, and why and how they worship it, but they all worship it.
You'd make me really happy, though, if you could write a factual declarative sentence with 'God' as the subject of the verb.
11 Sep 09
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI think I may have the most trouble with 5 (p). I don't subscribe to once saved always saved. After that My argument is mostly in whom Calvin is refering to as elect, and why only the elect recieve salvation. As you may have guessed, I am not a pre-determinist.
[b]L. = Limited atonement (propitiated the father for some sins, not all)
and I. = Irresistible grace (Individual volition is coerced) are plain BS.[/b]
11 Sep 09
Originally posted by duecerDuecer, God's omniscience knew in eternity past who would believe in Christ and who would reject the grace gift of salvation. His prior knowledge has always served as a point of confusion for some who prefer to superimpose their own subjective opinion that He, therefore, must have flipped a few coins and predetermined whose tickets would get punched and who would be left at the station. Salvation is a perfect plan, a crucial option made available by a perfect God. Once saved, always saved because it depends on Him. Not us. We become identified with Christ, as Royal Family Members. Once born into a family you don't get out, though you may get disciplined.
I think I may have the most trouble with 5 (p). I don't subscribe to once saved always saved. After that My argument is mostly in whom Calvin is refering to as elect, and why only the elect recieve salvation. As you may have guessed, I am not a pre-determinist.
11 Sep 09
Originally posted by SuzianneRapture
I'm not a big fan of the Rapture. I could go either way. The reason I don't see it as a major part of my "Revelation timeline beliefs" is that it's not mentioned specifically in the Bible at all. I don't have a problem with it being true, though. It fits in with other "Revelation events" and it would be a hard event to miss. I can see it happening as a ...[text shortened]... kickoff event". I'm not exactly holding my breath waiting for it to happen, though.
Tribulation
Eschatology
Christianity's biggest joke on Humanity. 😞
11 Sep 09
Originally posted by PalynkaYou know, way back when I encountered the concept for the first time, I remember thinking "wow, how could so much of humanity be deceived so easily?"
Really, do you realize how much of a lunatic you sound? I come from a country with 90+% Christians and if you repeated that story there about the anti-Christ and the Mark of the Beast, then everybody would think you're deranged.
Seriously. Seek help.
Now I think I know.
11 Sep 09
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI reject the premise of your argument. You state that God is omnicient and knows the future, being able to know all that has been, and all that is, is not the same as being able to know the future. Of course a being that knows the smallest details as they unfold. and that never forgets. would be able to make astute assumptions about the future, but would not be able to accurately predict all behaviors. your argument has inherant contradictions in it. If God knew Adam would sin given the circumstances and had actually counted on it, and had predestined it, then isn't God ximself ultimately responsible for Adam's transgression? No, God is not a crystal ball gazer, we were given free will, just as Adam was given free will, what we do with it is up to us, if not, then there was no need for Christ's atonement, God can save whom he wills, and rejects whom he wills. Calvinism has long been a discredited theology.
Duecer, God's omniscience knew in eternity past [b]who would believe in Christ and who would reject the grace gift of salvation. His prior knowledge has always served as a point of confusion for some who prefer to superimpose their own subjective opinion that He, therefore, must have flipped a few coins and predetermined whose tickets would ...[text shortened]... ily Members. Once born into a family you don't get out, though you may get disciplined.[/b]
11 Sep 09
Originally posted by duecerYou've put your finger on one of the biggest puzzlers since the beginning.
I reject the premise of your argument. You state that God is omnicient and knows the future, being able to know all that has been, and all that is, is not the same as being able to know the future. Of course a being that knows the smallest details as they unfold. and that never forgets. would be able to make astute assumptions about the future, but would not ...[text shortened]... ave whom he wills, and rejects whom he wills. Calvinism has long been a discredited theology.
God's Omniscience vs. Man's Free Will.
The debate rages on.
11 Sep 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Grampy Bobbyas for once saved always saved: By grace are ye saved through faith. Ephesians 2:8
Duecer, God's omniscience knew in eternity past [b]who would believe in Christ and who would reject the grace gift of salvation. His prior knowledge has always served as a point of confusion for some who prefer to superimpose their own subjective opinion that He, therefore, must have flipped a few coins and predetermined whose tickets would ...[text shortened]... ily Members. Once born into a family you don't get out, though you may get disciplined.[/b]
Wesley asks the question and then gives his answer here: I. What faith it is through which we are saved?
What faith it is through which we are saved. And, first, it is not barely the faith of a heathen. Now, God requireth of a heathen to believe, "that God is; that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him;" and that he is to be sought by glorifying him as God, by giving him thanks for all things, and by a careful practice of moral virtue, of justice, mercy, and truth, toward their fellow creatures. A Greek or Roman, therefore, yea, a Scythian or Indian, was without excuse if he did not believe thus much: the being and attributes of God, a future state of reward and punishment, and the obligatory nature of moral virtue. For this is barely the faith of a heathen.
What faith is it then through which we are saved? It may be answered, first, in general, it is a faith in Christ: Christ, and God through Christ, are the proper objects of it. Herein, therefore, it is sufficiently, absolutely distinguished from the faith either of ancient or modern heathens. And from the faith of a devil it is fully distinguished by this: it is not barely a speculative, rational thing, a cold, lifeless assent, a train of ideas in the head; but also a disposition of the heart. For thus saith the Scripture, "With the heart man believeth unto righteousness;" and, "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
edit: if we lose faith, we lose salvation