Suicide Pill

The post that was quoted here has been removed

You're a hard man, Smaug, with a tender heart that you don't wear on your sleeve. So am I. One reason I understand and respect you.

Originally posted by Palynka
What was your neighbour doing to change the things that he said were happening to him?

I've had people close to me commit suicide (both family and friends). Maybe GB has too. This "Have you ever..." comments are just lazy arguments. That people think differently from you doesn't mean they're ignorant or haven't thought about this properly.

I don't go a ...[text shortened]... conducive to making such a choice, but that doesn't make it a good choice in my view.

this is something i've thought about a lot.

to the person at that time they obviously thought it was the best thing to do but i agree with you in a way that it's never the best choice.

n. ireland has the highest rate of suicide per person than any other part of the uk or ireland. i can see why some people would want to top themselves, this is a $hithole but to actually go through with it?

most of the suicides here are by young people, i probably thought about it when i was younger as do a lot of people i guess but people think about all kinds of things it doesn't mean they're going to do them. how can it get that bad that you would kill yourself, especially a young person. i don't understand, if you're young or old or can always move to a different place and start other in a bid to find whatever it is that makes you dislike yourself to the point of killing yourself.

i can't understand the thought about doing it but i'll never understand the actual doing it. it's a bit of a cope out.

Originally posted by Palynka
What was your neighbour doing to change the things that he said were happening to him?

You cannot always change/control the things in your life.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
You describe Job of the OT with great accuracy. Camus wrote of "falling upward". Suffering is often a beneficial crossroads opportunity.

I don't really know what you're talking about in the first part of this post, but I will add this: depression is a mental condition, an illness. In its most extreme case it can make a person suicidal. Do you think people are cowards for being ill then?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Suicide is an insult to your family, friends, community and the entire human race. Only the deranged mind of a coward would consider it.

Gotta love sadists who kick the depressed while they're down with aggressive, insulting verbal abuse in which they blame the depressed for the pain they suffer.

When your wife or daughter gets cancer and I mock your pain, remember, you asked for it.

Originally posted by mikelom
Not even a suicide does away with himself out of desperation, he considers the act so long and so deliberately, that he kills himself with thinking -- one could barely call it suicide since it is thinking which takes his life. He does not kill himself with deliberation but rather kills himself because of deliberation. - Kierkegaard.

That is not necessarily true.

Originally posted by Raven69
You cannot always change/control the things in your life.

You can't control everything, but you can always change many things. A lot more than many people even consider.

Originally posted by Palynka
What was your neighbour doing to change the things that he said were happening to him?

I've had people close to me commit suicide (both family and friends). Maybe GB has too. This "Have you ever..." comments are just lazy arguments. That people think differently from you doesn't mean they're ignorant or haven't thought about this properly.

I don't go a ...[text shortened]... conducive to making such a choice, but that doesn't make it a good choice in my view.

It's not a lazy argument: I claimed that psychic pain exists which passes the drowning sailor test, in my view, and gave an instance of such pain.

My neighbour had been released from a psychiatric hospital recently; she had some sort of schizophrenia. I didn't know her too well, but she did mention in some detail, in a kind of offhand way, the horrors visited upon her on a nightly basis by intruders in her (locked) apartment.

As indicated by that example, I'm not talking about depression in particular, although I am pretty certain that there are cases of depression which pass the "drowning sailor" test.

I guess my question is about whose place it is to pass judgement on how good a choice suicide is in instances which pass the drowning sailor test. In my own interactions with psychiatrists, I found their obsession with whether or not I was going to top myself frustrating and humiliating, and not at all conducive to the feeling of autonomy that is helpful for avoiding drowning-sailor states of mind. Of course suicide is very, very damaging to the survivors, but I'm not sure how ascribing some moral status to the act (by even wondering about whether it is a good choice) helps anybody involved, including those survivors.

If Bobby is calling people cowards because someone close to him has committed suicide, then I apologise for my "asshattery" comment, since I've never dealt with such a suicide, and that comment would then be hypocritical.

Originally posted by Palynka
You can't control everything, but you can always change many things. A lot more than many people even consider.

You can't change your loved ones dying, being used by others, having psychological conditions such as OCD and schizophrenia, being unable to and afraid to go to sleep because of the disturbing nightmares from which you cannot wake up...you cannot change what affects you most.

Originally posted by Palynka
Painful terminal disease would be the most likely one.

What about painful, chronic disease? What about painful, chronic mental disease?

I don't argue that in a number of cases (some, many, most, who knows?) that suicide is a cowardly act and a cop out. But I think it's important to understand that it's so very wrong to put this blanket of shame on everyone.

Do people suffer? Of course. Should we struggle? Yes. What happens when the ability to struggle is gone and all resources are used up and there simply is no more point? If a cancer patient fights his disease with everything possible and still dies of it, there is no shame in that. No one would say he was cowardly because the disease overwhelmed his body.

If a depressive or bipolar patient fights his disease with everything possible and eventually succumbs because there is nothing left in him to do so and simply hanging on takes more strength than he has, why is there shame in that? Disease is disease.

My point is simply that it's impossible to know when a person has reached their limit of dealing with physical or psychic demons and so dismissing them as simply cowards is ignorant and cruel.

Originally posted by Raven69
You can't change your loved ones dying, being used by others, having psychological conditions such as OCD and schizophrenia, being unable to and afraid to go to sleep because of the disturbing nightmares from which you cannot wake up...you cannot change what affects you most.

The vast majority of people had loved ones who died, were used by others and had many things happening to them. Most incidences of OCD and schizophrenia DO NOT end it situations like the one CL described and thousands of people live with them without going through life thinking it's a calvary.

You see, most people just use all those things as excuses, but not once try to dramatically change their lives. For those who suffer from depression and do not even TRY to significantly change their lives, I have no tears to shed. None at all.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
You describe Job of the OT with great accuracy. Camus wrote of "falling upward". Suffering is often a beneficial crossroads opportunity.

Raven, my initial post above was breezy station to station. On a personal note... please know that whatever's going down (major family loss,

life disappointment, threatening health issue or financial reversal, etc ) you're alive, so there's still a purpose and plan for your unique life.

Chin up, Gal. Purpose to take the path forward one decision, one step, one day at a time. Getting too far out in front will only cause anxiety.


Bobby

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Mimor, statements of harsh principle will always be rejected by those accustomed to warm fuzzies and semi solid food served lukewarm.

Unless this is your indirect way of explaining much of the crap you spew, this statement is meaningless.

Originally posted by Mimor
If a depressive or bipolar patient fights his disease with everything possible and eventually succumbs because there is nothing left in him to do so and simply hanging on takes more strength than he has, why is there shame in that? Disease is disease.

Also, unfortunately help for psychiatric problems can be very hard to get. Sometimes a suicide attempt may be the only way to get the help you need. Of course if you succeed, it's too late, and if you don't succeed, you may be left with additional problems like a mutilated body or brain damage.

Originally posted by Raven69
You can't change your loved ones dying, being used by others, having psychological conditions such as OCD and schizophrenia, being unable to and afraid to go to sleep because of the disturbing nightmares from which you cannot wake up...you cannot change what affects you most.

Point in time medication rehabilitation and ongoing maintenance regimines are often both indicated and highly successful. Physcian involved?