Only Chess
06 Mar 08
31 Mar 08
2 edits
Originally posted by no1marauderIf we will establish Lynch court (which seems to be your ideal), then you should be one of the first who would be punished. Many people would believe accusations made against you, as they dislike you.
Well he can file a lawsuit if he desires. Why you think it is OK for people to come on and say he's innocent but wrong for people to say, based on the evidence, he appears guilty is a mystery to me.
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by no1marauderHe is innocent until proven guilty, its as simple as that.
Well he can file a lawsuit if he desires. Why you think it is OK for people to come on and say he's innocent but wrong for people to say, based on the evidence, he appears guilty is a mystery to me.
As he has not been proven guilty he is therfore innocent and it is perfectly reasonable to state that.
A high match up rate over a selected sample of games proves nothing. The moves may be forced or obviously best. What needs to be establised is were any of them engine moves. If so you have your evidence but if not you have nothing.
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by no1marauderUh...perfectly OK to say anyone is not a cheat. There are no consequences for not cheating.
Well he can file a lawsuit if he desires. Why you think it is OK for people to come on and say he's innocent but wrong for people to say, based on the evidence, he appears guilty is a mystery to me.
Sadly in a public lynching the onus of proof falls heavily on the accused to satisfy the mob of their innocence and in most cases you'll find the mob has already made up it's mind and is unlikely to be swayed by reasoned argument.
Myself I'm happy to await the verdict of the newly formed mods before I form my opinion on Cludi...although I sincerely hope he is exonerated. Before all this blew up I very much enjoyed Cludi's contributions to the site and I also value the resources on his website...so whatever the verdict it is a sad loss.
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by KorchDo your job and the problem will be solved one way or the other.
If we will establish Lynch court (which seems to be your ideal), then you should be one of the first who would be punished. Many people would believe accusations made against you, as they dislike you.
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by Dragon FireI would add that for many people (I`m not one of them) in this site 600 points difference between OTB rating and RHP rating seems like overhelming evidence.
He is innocent until proven guilty, its as simple as that.
As he has not been proven guilty he is therfore innocent and it is perfectly reasonable to state that.
A high match up rate over a selected sample of games proves nothing. The moves may be forced or obviously best. What needs to be establised is were any of them engine moves. If so you have your evidence but if not you have nothing.
So I dont think that no1marauder is interested in Lynch court.
31 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderOkay, when only considering 1st and 2nd choices of Fritz, he had a higher match-up in 8/14 games (not considering 2 games with a difference of only 2-3% ). Among those 8 games, the biggest difference was 31% (again David Tebb - cludi 1/2 - 1/2). 4 other games had a difference of about 20% (17-21% ). What is more striking is that cludi rarely played 3rd choices of Fritz in most of his games, whatever that means.
I'm not talking about the third choices (which prove little). Concentrate on 1st choice matchups and close seconds. An 85% matchup in almost 450 non-opening book moves is IM31 territory.
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31 Mar 08
2 replies in one, for economy of posts.
Originally posted by no1marauder
The "witch" seems to have fled the trial right after the jury has been selected.
I think you'll find he fled before, and only signed off when the jury were selected.
Originally posted by no1marauder
[...] show his match-ups with Fritz being consistently 20% higher than the other players in the finals of the 2007 Championship. Someone is not entitled to a presumption of innocence if the evidence indicates guilt.
I'm afraid I have trouble seeing the evidence you see. One of my games has a 75% match rate to my engine, which surprised me, for obvious reasons. Then I looked closer - out of 8 moves, 6 match - my opponent messed up in the opening, and resigned. Conclusion - game too short to be worth considering.
Getting a high match rate cannot be difficult in a tactical game - sometimes there is a clear move which wins material, even just one or two moves deep. A good player will find it quickly, as will an engine. I'll find it if I take longer and look harder. Often there will be a sequence of moves which keep winning stuff - 100% match to an engine. Statistics alone get you nowhere.
Until the mods reach a decision, the presumption of innocence holds, I'm afraid. Trial by media is usually just wrong.
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by Dragon FireThat principle applies to the criminal law, not here.
He is innocent until proven guilty, its as simple as that.
As he has not been proven guilty he is therfore innocent and it is perfectly reasonable to state that.
A high match up rate over a selected sample of games proves nothing. The moves may be forced or obviously best. What needs to be establised is were any of them engine moves. If so you have your evidence but if not you have nothing.
He is either innocent or guilty and each person can make up their own mind on which. Hopefully by looking at and analyzing the relevent facts.
Your last paragraph is filled with errors:
1) This sample is not "selected" i.e. cherry picked - it's ALL his games from the finals of the 2007 Championship;
2) The sample is almost 450 moves in all types of games. Even a casual review of the games makes clear that a fairly high percentage of Cludi's moves were neither forced or obviously best;
3) There is no such thing as an "engine move" per se though some moves are more indicative of engine use than others. It is erroneous to infer that someone can say "Aha! X's 35th move in Game 246726 PROVES he's using an engine";
4) The totality of evidence is what counts. And each bit of it contributes to the final conclusion.
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by Korchyou can see:
I would add that for many people (I`m not one of them) in this site 600 points difference between OTB rating and RHP rating seems like overhelming evidence.
So I dont think that no1marauder is interested in Lynch court.
Rating: RHP vs OTB
thread...
as some can acuse cludi because of some overwhelming of some 8x% of Fritz matching moves, I think others can acuse players only of the statistics of the above mentioned thread, noticing that 0% of the players in the statistics are having 500+ difference between RHP and OTB
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by gambit05gambit: What is more striking is that cludi rarely played 3rd choices of Fritz in most of his games, whatever that means.
Okay, when only considering 1st and 2nd choices of Fritz, he had a higher match-up in 8/14 games (not considering 2 games with a difference of only 2-3% ). Among those 8 games, the biggest difference was 31% (again David Tebb - cludi 1/2 - 1/2). 4 other games had a difference of about 20% (17-21% ). What is more striking is that cludi rarely played 3rd choices of Fritz in most of his games, whatever that means.
What do you think it means?
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by gezzaWell, without defending anyone or anything, please note that the presented games are all of very high standard (final round of the Championship). Without having a look to any of the games, I guess that there are no major blunders in them and all of them are considerably long.
2 replies in one, for economy of posts.
Originally posted by no1marauder
[b]The "witch" seems to have fled the trial right after the jury has been selected.
I think you'll find he fled before, and only signed off when the jury were selected.
Originally posted by no1marauder
[...] show his match-ups with Fritz being consistent ...[text shortened]... on, the presumption of innocence holds, I'm afraid. Trial by media is usually just wrong.
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by no1marauderWhat I think about that is not (yet) relevant in public, but one has to consider how close the individual 2nd move choices were to the 1st move choices and the 3rd move choices to the 2nd ones. I don't have that information.
gambit: What is more striking is that cludi rarely played 3rd choices of Fritz in most of his games, whatever that means.
What do you think it means?
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31 Mar 08
Originally posted by gambit05So without wishing to accuse anyone else, how do the other players look?
Well, without defending anyone or anything, please note that the presented games are all of very high standard (final round of the Championship). Without having a look to any of the games, I guess that there are no major blunders in them and all of them are considerably long.
Is it just possible that all of the players in the final round play to a high standard? That they all set up a board and played each move, looked at it for an hour, and then decided whether to play it or not?
How good are the competition?
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by vipiu+500 ELO CC compared to OTB! 😲
you can see:
Rating: RHP vs OTB
thread...
as some can acuse cludi because of some overwhelming of some 8x% of Fritz matching moves, I think others can acuse players only of the statistics of the above mentioned thread, noticing that 0% of the players in the statistics are having 500+ difference between RHP and OTB
Jeeez what do you do - crap yourself in public?
31 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by gezzaYou are incorrect; he may have fled the Forums but he kept playing here until the new Game Mod team was selected. I find that somewhat incriminating; not conclusive in and of itself, but part of the puzzle.
2 replies in one, for economy of posts.
Originally posted by no1marauder
The "witch" seems to have fled the trial right after the jury has been selected.[/b]
I think you'll find he fled before, and only signed off when the jury were selected.
Originally posted by no1marauder
[...] show his match-ups with Fritz being consistent on, the presumption of innocence holds, I'm afraid. Trial by media is usually just wrong.
The stats from one game mean little, but those from a fairly large number of games having almost 450 non-opening book moves do. That's a pretty sizable sample.
Someone else started this thread to assert Cludi's innocence. I don't think public claims of his innocence should go unanswered by the evidence. Now that there is a Game Mod team speculation either way is unnecessary in the public forums, so if people will stop saying he's an innocent valuable member of the RHP community being railroaded off the site by a witch hunt, I'll stop saying that there is a lot of evidence to the contrary.