Question about engine choice in opening

Originally posted by Zweite
Fischer played the King's Gambit.
And indeed I would supply the games if I had the time to write down 50 moves for both sides. 😕
The context was in fairly strong tournaments and from quite recently, I started playing the Petroff a few months ago as Black.

I'm not a big follower of Fischer's games, but all I've heard about him playing the KG was from the black side. Did he play the white-side KG with any regularity?

I do remember his famous article, "A Bust to the King's Gambit", which I think even Bobby admitted was a bit rash. But I think it points out he wasn't a big fan of the KG.

Originally posted by Mad Rook
I'm not a big follower of Fischer's games, but all I've heard about him playing the KG was from the black side. Did he play the white-side KG with any regularity?

I do remember his famous article, "A Bust to the King's Gambit", which I think even Bobby admitted was a bit rash. But I think it points out he wasn't a big fan of the KG.

That game was played in 1963 - after his "refutation" article in 1961.

[Event "New York ch-US Rd: 2"]
[Site "New York ch-US Rd: 2"]
[Date "1963.??.??"]
[EventDate "?"]
[Round "?"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Robert James Fischer"]
[Black "Larry Melvyn Evans"]
[ECO "C33"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "71"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Bc4 Qh4+ 4. Kf1 d6 5. Nc3 Be6 6. Qe2 c6
7. Nf3 Qe7 8. d4 Bxc4 9. Qxc4 g5 10. e5 d5 11. Qd3 Na6 12. Ne2
Nb4 13. Qd1 O-O-O 14. c3 Na6 15. h4 g4 16. Nh2 h5 17. Nxf4
Qxh4 18. Kg1 Nh6 19. Nf1 Qe7 20. Nxh5 Rg8 21. Nfg3 Rg6 22. Nf4
Rg5 23. Be3 Nc7 24. Qd2 Rg8 25. Nfe2 f6 26. exf6 Qxf6 27. Bxh6
Bd6 28. Rf1 Qe6 29. Bf4 Rde8 30. Rh6 Bxf4 31. Qxf4 Qe7 32. Rf6
Ne6 33. Qe5 Ng5 34. Qxe7 Rxe7 35. Rf8+ Rxf8 36. Rxf8+ 1-0

Originally posted by Korch
That game was played in 1963 - after his "refutation" article in 1961.

[Event "New York ch-US Rd: 2"]
[Site "New York ch-US Rd: 2"]
[Date "1963.??.??"]
[EventDate "?"]
[Round "?"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Robert James Fischer"]
[Black "Larry Melvyn Evans"]
[ECO "C33"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "71"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Bc4 Qh4+ ...[text shortened]... Qe7 32. Rf6
Ne6 33. Qe5 Ng5 34. Qxe7 Rxe7 35. Rf8+ Rxf8 36. Rxf8+ 1-0

He also played it twice at Vinkovci in 1968 against R. Wade and D. Minic, winning both. And he actually only faced it once as Black: a loss to Spassky (though hardly caused by the opening) at Mar Del Plata in 1960.

Originally posted by Korch
That game was played in 1963 - after his "refutation" article in 1961.

[Event "New York ch-US Rd: 2"]
[Site "New York ch-US Rd: 2"]
[Date "1963.??.??"]
[EventDate "?"]
[Round "?"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Robert James Fischer"]
[Black "Larry Melvyn Evans"]
[ECO "C33"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "71"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Bc4 Qh4+ ...[text shortened]... Qe7 32. Rf6
Ne6 33. Qe5 Ng5 34. Qxe7 Rxe7 35. Rf8+ Rxf8 36. Rxf8+ 1-0

Cool! An early round game against his buddy, Larry Evans. 🙂

But only one? Did you find any others?

Edit - Sorry, my posting crossed with marauder's post.

Originally posted by Mad Rook
Cool! An early round game against his buddy, Larry Evans. 🙂

But only one? Did you find any others?

Edit - Sorry, my posting crossed with marauder's post.

Those are the only King's Gambits he played in Grandmaster competition; Chessgames has 16 more that he played in simuls. He went 11W, 2L, 3D in those; here's a rather embarassing quick loss to the Falkbeer Counter Gambit: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1279196

Here's his other loss to a King's Gambit Declined (2 ..... Bc5): http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1255137

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
Just out of interest, what does your copy of Fritz, Shredder or whatever suggest is the best play in the opening for both sides if you leave it running for half an hour or more?
Is there a general concensus or are they all different?
Also, I'm guessing that since they're tactics-driven they'd all go 1.e4.
My betting is on some form of Ruy Lopez.
Interested to see your results.
🙂

I used to be curios too, but it's actually a totally pointless question. It has absolutely nothing to do with the objective merit of any move.

Originally posted by Mad Rook
I'm not a big follower of Fischer's games, but all I've heard about him playing the KG was from the black side. Did he play the white-side KG with any regularity?

I do remember his famous article, "A Bust to the King's Gambit", which I think even Bobby admitted was a bit rash. But I think it points out he wasn't a big fan of the KG.

Fischer was shocked he actually lost- but yes he did play the KG.

Originally posted by Zweite
Fischer played the King's Gambit.

I know but that's hardly relevant to whether it's sound with current knowledge of best play.

Originally posted by JonathanB of London
I know but that's hardly relevant to whether it's sound with current knowledge of best play.

If you can find me a refutation of the King's Gambit then by all means, show me.
I think another thing you need to know is no opening is unsound. The follow-up is what counts.

Originally posted by JonathanB of London
I know but that's hardly relevant to whether it's sound with current knowledge of best play.

The Scotch wasn't particularly highly thought of a few years before Kasparov beat Karpov with it.
It's more a matter of fashion & the fact that GM's are loathe to take risks.
Also if a GM was playing for instance Joseph Gallagher I think they'd be rather dis-inclined to play 1...e5 as Black!
Barring an unlikley tactical mistake, I believe that the King's Gambit (which in fact is still used by some GM's) is geared around giving White better chances in the endgame with a superior pawn structure.

Originally posted by Zweite
If you can find me a refutation of the King's Gambit then by all means, show me.
I think another thing you need to know is no opening is unsound. The follow-up is what counts.

I don't think I need to suggest a detailed refutation -- afterall that would take several pages and whatever lines I suggested you could say (ah but what about this what about that etc).

Of course this is equally true the other way around. If asked you to demonstrate a line that white gets equal chances we'd have the same problem.

I'll rely on the fact that the King's Gambit is not (often) played at GM level these days and never at all at super GM level. of course, I might be proved wrong and somebody will give it a punt at Baku but I doubt it (even if Radjabov is getting away with a reversed King's Gambit of sorts against the Spanish for the time being).

I don't agree with your "all openings are sound" idea by the way. Certainly its surprising what you can get away with (see comments about the Schliemann above) but some lines are eventually proved bad (or at least not good enough) and that's why they disappear.

We don't see 1. ... d5 at the top level anymore and we don't see King's gambit at the top level anymore - because they're not sound enough to rely on. Larsen beat Karpov with 1. ... d5 and fischer used to play the King's Gambit but they were both a long time ago.

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
The Scotch wasn't particularly highly thought of a few years before Kasparov beat Karpov with it.

Sure ... but he didn't fancy it against kramnik even when getting nowhere against the Berlin Wall did he.

Like I said before lots of openings are playable at our level (all the ones mentioned so far included) that doesn't mean that they're good enough for the Super GMs.

As you say yourself - some lines are just too risky. if 1. ... d5 was as good as 1. ... c5 or 1. ... e5 it wouldn't be considered too risky would it?

Originally posted by JonathanB of London
Sure ... but he didn't fancy it against kramnik even when getting nowhere against the Berlin Wall did he.

Like I said before lots of openings are playable at our level (all the ones mentioned so far included) that doesn't mean that they're good enough for the Super GMs.

As you say yourself - some lines are just too risky. if 1. ... d5 was as good as 1. ... c5 or 1. ... e5 it wouldn't be considered too risky would it?

Maybe he should have; he's never lost in competition playing it. http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?pid=15940&side=white&eco=C45&node=62545

Originally posted by no1marauder
Maybe he should have; he's never lost in competition playing it.

Now this I think is a really interesting question... why didn't Kasparov play the Scotch against Kramnik in 2000? Seems bizarre to me given that it was quickly obvious that the Berlin suited Kramnik much better than Gazza.

I tend to think you're right ... maybe he should have. Afterall, things couldn't have gone worse for him than was already happening. Maybe he just didn't have any faith in it or had some other reason not to play it. Strange that he should prefer micro draws in the English to giving it a punt.

Originally posted by JonathanB of London
I don't think I need to suggest a detailed refutation -- afterall that would take several pages and whatever lines I suggested you could say (ah but what about this what about that etc).

Of course this is equally true the other way around. If asked you to demonstrate a line that white gets equal chances we'd have the same problem.

I'll rel d5 and fischer used to play the King's Gambit but they were both a long time ago.

I think that current analysis says that the Schliemann is sound. Unless of course the likes of Judit Polgars and Topalovs are just some patzers. 😛

Now seriously: I think that 4. d3 is the line that can cause black more trouble in the Schliemann but even so after the opening it seems like the position is equal. Of course than we have the middlegame and endgame to play but if black can come out of the opening equal and along the way he has a lot of practical chances to get a better position I say why not play it? It's just like you say at our level everything goes pretty much (sometime ago I ven read an article on the net about a guy that uses the Damiano defence in tournament play in the USA and wins games with it.) But the down side of this risky openings is that you too have to be on the lookout. I've been playing the Schliemann for some time now and that's why I'm jumping on it's defence. A lot of times white doesn't even seem to know what he's doing. And since we are playing CC I find it very comforting. Just imagine me springing this on a guy on OTB and then be aware of what should be happening on the board.

Anyway Marshall played a lot of Schliemann games and even drew Capa. I think that on all chess players Capa would be the one to severely punish an unsound opening.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1094811 a defeat
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1094819 the draw

A nice win by Bronstein http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1033763

Edit: And a game of mine too: Game 4775143