26 Apr 08
Originally posted by exigentskyI see - you mean from black's point of view after 2. Nc6 the Ruy is unavoidable. There are other 2nd move options, although it's not clear that any of them really provide counter-chances except the Petrov. If that is what you meant I agree with your post.
I don't mean anything derogatory by "other defenses." I'm just saying that anything after Nc6 and Bb5 is in the realm of the Ruy Lopez.
26 Apr 08
There seems to be two issues: 1) What do you play on this site and 2) What do you play OTB (or in timed games).
Any opening you play HERE against good players, you're going to be playing against grandmaster moves. IF the Ruy only grants the top GMs a very slight advantage, it's likely that's what you'll get here. And following Ruy moves in databases is pretty easy; there's a lot of games there.
OTB you probably have a better chance of playing the Ruy and getting a bit of an advantage. I still prefer the Scotch which opens up the position a lit bit without being too wild and usually leaves White with a better pawn structure. But that's a personal preference though I think the average 1 ...... e5 player is more prepared for the Ruy then the Scotch.
Finally if you're an 1 e4 player you are going to have to do a lot of opening memorization and book work on the Sicilian. The average player's time is limited and to have to spend an equal amount of time on the complexities of the Ruy is difficult. Considering that you also have to at least know a few lines against the main other openings (French, Caro, Alekhine's, etc.), I think that the time factor in working on the Ruy comes into play.
26 Apr 08
Originally posted by no1marauderWith rare exceptions, if you need to memorize moves, you shouldn't play those openings. After looking through a book, surveying the databases and trying to understand everything, theory should come naturally.
There seems to be two issues: 1) What do you play on this site and 2) What do you play OTB (or in timed games).
Any opening you play HERE against good players, you're going to be playing against grandmaster moves. IF the Ruy only grants the top GMs a very slight advantage, it's likely that's what you'll get here. And following Ruy moves in ...[text shortened]... Alekhine's, etc.), I think that the time factor in working on the Ruy comes into play.
26 Apr 08
Originally posted by exigentskyIf Black plays Nc6, there is no way to avoid it. The others are just various defenses.
If Black plays Nc6, there is no way to avoid it. The others are just various defenses.
Even though, White has found it difficult to get a significant edge, the fact that it's all Ruys suggests that the White players have the most confidence in it. If Nc3 was played instead, you can probably expect the results to be worse. The Ruy is the only opening t ...[text shortened]... n the QID with Ba6 and 9. Nbd2. White gets a slight edge but Black has no trouble drawing.
Why do you think that black is obliged to play 2...Nc6 if Black has many good options to avoid Ruy, if they dont want to play that. Sicilian, French, Caro- Can, Petroff etc....
Even though, White has found it difficult to get a significant edge, the fact that it's all Ruys suggests that the White players have the most confidence in it.
Confidence gives nothing if in practice black has good results in Ruy.
If Nc3 was played instead, you can probably expect the results to be worse. The Ruy is the only opening that makes Black's life awkward and keeps tension for a long time - imo.
Dont need to pretend that White has no reasonable alternatives to Ruy.
Scotch is very playable (ans there are GMs using it) and 1.d4 for example.
Personally, I think that there is no way to completely equalize in the Ruy (although the Marshall comes close). It's just that White has to be very precise to keep the edge and even then, it's not a winning edge. Your opponent has to help. I can reveal deep theory to support this, but I have satisfied myself and see no obligation to satisfy the forum. You don't have to play the Ruy.
BTW: White has an edge in the Berlin. Kasparov tended to have better positions against Kramnik, it's just that the edge is too small for more than a draw - as with all decent defenses. The same kind of thing often happens in the QID with Ba6 and 9. Nbd2. White gets a slight edge but Black has no trouble drawing.
You can claim whatever you want (like Berliner in his "System"😉, but without particular lines these claims has zero value.
Practice shows that Black has no problems in Berlin and even Kasparov was not able to do something.
If black has no trouble drawing than that small edge (which white can keep only playing very precise) has zero value. So you should not wonder why so many GMs (including Kramnik) prefers closed openings.
26 Apr 08
Wow. This thread has dug deep. I agree with many of the posters that instead of Bb5 d4 is possible- I think in practice it is better to play the Scotch Game because of course the Lopez is very common and is an obvious researching point.
I myself like to play the Scotch a lot OTB.
26 Apr 08
4 edits
Originally posted by KorchI never thought that Black was forced to allow a Ruy, it's just that the other defenses are a separate topic.
[b]If Black plays Nc6, there is no way to avoid it. The others are just various defenses.
Why do you think that black is obliged to play 2...Nc6 if Black has many good options to avoid Ruy, if they dont want to play that. Sicilian, French, Caro- Can, Petroff etc....
Even though, White has found it difficult to get a significant edge, the fact tha e. So you should not wonder why so many GMs (including Kramnik) prefers closed openings.
As for the Ruy, I have much more than just confidence and so do the GMs playing it. White has good results with the Ruy. According to Mega Database 2008 filtered for 2600+ and using games since 2000, White scores 58% from 1773 Ruys. This doesn't change for the Berlin defense. The second most popular move is 3. d4, with 177 outings and 55%. It's clear that White's results with the Ruy are more than adequate even at the highest levels. This does not mean there aren't playable alternatives (nor did I ever state otherwise). Kasparov was still... Kasparov when using the Scotch. 🙂 My claim is that the Ruy is most popular, doing well and provides the most long-term awkward tension out of the responses after 2. ...Nc6.
I mentioned from the outset that I do not wish to get into a big debate on this. To me this discussion is moot as there is no doubt in my mind that the Ruy is the strongest response objectively (but not necessarily for any particular player). Proving this would be futile since I can spend several pages explaining the logic of Bb5 and yet many more on topical variations. All the while, it would never be enough because there would always be a line I will not have mentioned which you can use to claim that my support is inconclusive. Chess is not a science and it is up to each player to see the merits of certain moves based on his own phiosophy. I've done my research and have my opinions. You don't have to accept them as your own.
BTW: All major openings, with sufficient analysis and accuracy are unlikely to yield White more than an endgame advantage too small for a forced win. The difference is that openings like the Berlin, Petroff or 9. Nbd2 Ba6 QID usually allow less scope for complications in which one side or the other would be able to accumulate a winning advantage. Thus, White is just left with the slightly better endgame but little else to create winning chances. I take it as an axiom, but if you don't, I'm not about to justify this.
This stuff cannot be easily proven and what would I even gain if I waste tens of hours to prove this or other statements I've made to you or others in the forum? I've already learned what I needed for myself. I hope to offer insight but I'm not about to make this forum a full-time job.
EDIT: I give up on trying to remove the bold for now. 🙁 There is a way to get around the bug, but I'm not sure how.
26 Apr 08
Originally posted by exigentskyAbout statistics:
I never thought that Black was forced to allow a Ruy, it's just that the other defenses are a separate topic.
As for the Ruy, I have much more than just confidence and so do the GMs playing it. Additionally, White has good results with the Ruy. According to Mega Database 2008 filtered for 2600+ and using games since 2000, White scores 58% from 1773 Ruy ...[text shortened]... yself. I hope to offer insight but I'm not about to make this forum a full-time job.
1) Are these Ruy games were played by 2600+ against similar opposition (2600+) or also against weaker players?
2) In how many of these games white got advantage in opening?
If you take "Ruy is the best" as axiom, its your choice. But you should not be surprised if there will be many people who will not believe you "on word".
And if you would provide analysis and explanation why the Ruy is the best, I`m pretty sure that it would not make for me problems to argue with that.
26 Apr 08
Originally posted by Korch1. Yes, of course both were 2600+.
About statistics:
1) Are these Ruy games were played by 2600+ against similar opposition (2600+) or also against weaker players?
2) In how many of these games white got advantage in opening?
If you take "Ruy is the best" as axiom, its your choice. But you should not be surprised if there will be many people who will not believe you "on word".
And ...[text shortened]... Ruy is the best, I`m pretty sure that it would not make for me problems to argue with that.
2. Impossible to verify but at this level, games are usually not decisive without an opening advantage (as far as I've seen).
3. The axiom I was referring to was not that the Ruy is best, but that there is no White opening that would win by force against the major defenses. I consider the idea that chess is a draw with best play an axiom.
26 Apr 08
Originally posted by exigentskyIn my opinion searching only "objective the best" moves is archaism. You know why Lasker was superior over his contemporaries during his championship? Because he was one of the first who understood that searching for only "objective the best" moves is unrewarding business, which only restricts your options.
Out of curiosity Korch, what do you consider White's strongest move after 2. ...Nc6 if not the Ruy? I guess you could argue that they're all equal and entirely based on style because they all draw with "perfect play," but that's the easy way out. 😛
26 Apr 08
Originally posted by exigentskyStatement "at this level, games are usually not decisive without an opening advantage" simply does not match with facts. Look at FIDE Grand Prix games for example.
1. Yes, of course both were 2600+.
2. Impossible to verify but at this level, games are usually not decisive without an opening advantage (as far as I've seen).
3. The axiom I was referring to was not that the Ruy is best, but that there is no White opening that would win by force against the major defenses. I consider the idea that chess is a draw with best play an axiom.
26 Apr 08
Originally posted by KorchYou may be right. Like I mentioned, this was only after a cursory glance. However this is another one of those questions which are not easy to prove either way.
Statement [b]"at this level, games are usually not decisive without an opening advantage" simply does not match with facts. Look at FIDE Grand Prix games for example.[/b]
26 Apr 08
Originally posted by KorchI agree with that but there are still some moves which are better than others. Of course, it's easier not to commit to an answer. 😛
In my opinion searching only "objective the best" moves is archaism. You know why Lasker was superior over his contemporaries during his championship? Because he was one of the first who understood that searching for only "objective the best" moves is unrewarding business, which only restricts your options.
26 Apr 08
2 edits
Originally posted by exigentskyI prefer to make moves which leads to win. And I really don`t care if there are "objective better" moves which would lead to draw.
I agree with that but there are still some moves which are better than others. Of course, it's easier not to commit to an answer. 😛
26 Apr 08
1 edit
Originally posted by exigentskyActually many amateurs tend to idolize GMs thinking that if GM have equalised in opening he would not make mistakes in the rest of game.
You may be right. Like I mentioned, this was only after a cursory glance. However this is another one of those questions which are not easy to prove either way.