27 Jun 08
I'm pessimistic about all those cheat discover methods. Yes, if the cheater is a complete fool and just lets his engine play instead of him then the fact of cheating can be proved. But if he just uses the program from time to time, let's say once or twice per game, can he be discovered and punished in this case? The obvious answer is NO. I think web chess just can't be taken too seriously. You will never be 100% guaranteed you're not playing a cheater 🙁
27 Jun 08
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Originally posted by RizhaninIn internet only on blitz (without time increase) /bullet you can feel for 100% sure that you are playing with human.
I'm pessimistic about all those cheat discover methods. Yes, if the cheater is a complete fool and just lets his engine play instead of him then the fact of cheating can be proved. But if he just uses the program from time to time, let's say once or twice per game, can he be discovered and punished in this case? The obvious answer is NO. I think web chess j ...[text shortened]... 't be taken too seriously. You will never be 100% guaranteed you're not playing a cheater 🙁
Originally posted by RizhaninI don't want to underplay this problem nor imply that nothing should be done about it but firstly it is not as easy as you think (to identify cheaters) and secondly I do believe some posters are exaggerating the problem. That doesn't mean it isn't a problem and nothing should be done but it also doesn't mean we should see cheaters around every corner.
I'm pessimistic about all those cheat discover methods. Yes, if the cheater is a complete fool and just lets his engine play instead of him then the fact of cheating can be proved. But if he just uses the program from time to time, let's say once or twice per game, can he be discovered and punished in this case? The obvious answer is NO. I think web chess j ...[text shortened]... 't be taken too seriously. You will never be 100% guaranteed you're not playing a cheater 🙁
For a start if someone is graded 1300 - 1600 and really is cheating they clearly are not doing it very well so whilst what they are doing is wrong is it really of massive concern,
If someone is cheating for a couple of moves a game doesn't that mean 95% of the moves have to be found by him. The 2 moves for which engine assistance was required will count for nothing in the scheme of things and he will still lose. It doesn't make these actions right but its effect on the gamne result and hence on most of us is also negligible.
The same cannot be said about players whose ratings are soaring into the stratosphere unbeaten at 1800 and soon to be 2300 and it is these players who have the most adverse impact on us all. Better efforts must be made to identify them and there are some simple automated ways to do this.
(1) any new player still unbeaten after say 30 games comes under immediate scrutiny;
(2) every player in the top 100 (top 50 if thats too many) comes under scrutiny when first entering this level and is thereafter subjected to random checks;
(3) any player languishiung in the doldrums who shows a sudden improvement comes under immediate scrutiny.
Any one else comes under scrutiny if enough members report him (with evidence) but frankly if we focus on 1, 2 and 3 there will be few to worry about among the rest.
27 Jun 08
Originally posted by Dragon FireIn my opinion, for what that is worth, I think you present the most balanced opinion in this debate Dragon Fire.
I don't want to underplay this problem nor imply that nothing should be done about it but firstly it is not as easy as you think (to identify cheaters) and secondly I do believe some posters are exaggerating the problem. That doesn't mean it isn't a problem and nothing should be done but it also doesn't mean we should see cheaters around every corner.
...[text shortened]... ce) but frankly if we focus on 1, 2 and 3 there will be few to worry about among the rest.
I sit and I read daily, multiple threads about cheating. I am amused by just how vitriolic people get over this subject.
We have repeatedly concluded as a community that chess cheaters are deeply sad, flawed and tragic individuals.
But I wonder what it says about us (perhaps with the exception of those rated over 2000 who genuinely can be affected by cheaters), if we worry so much about the odd cheat that it distorts our entire view of what is a game, what is supposed to be fun, and what really shouldn't be inextricably linked to our self-esteem (namely our ratings).
So the hell what if one in 30, or even one in 20 are cheating. They are sad bas*****. We lose the game, we move on. It is impossible to completely and effectively police. If you can't handle that, play OTB.
It is as much a symbol of low self-esteem to be a cheat as it is to spend every waking moment moaning at the site moderators and everyone else about cheaters. Chill out, stop moaning, and just play the bloody game - please. I have played the odd cheater. Some ended up banned. For some it was just suspicion. I got over it. I played on, with the majority of decent people who are here to play for real. For Gods sake, stop WHINING!
27 Jun 08
Originally posted by Dragon FireI've recommended this post. I think Dragon Fire and I have similar views (the correct one). 😀
I don't want to underplay this problem nor imply that nothing should be done about it but firstly it is not as easy as you think (to identify cheaters) and secondly I do believe some posters are exaggerating the problem. That doesn't mean it isn't a problem and nothing should be done but it also doesn't mean we should see cheaters around every corner.
...[text shortened]... ce) but frankly if we focus on 1, 2 and 3 there will be few to worry about among the rest.
27 Jun 08
If someone is cheating for a couple of moves a game doesn't that mean 95% of the moves have to be found by him. The 2 moves for which engine assistance was required will count for nothing in the scheme of things and he will still lose. It doesn't make these actions right but its effect on the gamne result and hence on most of us is also negligible.I think using engine even 1 time during the game can often have tremendous effect on the result. Of course it wont help a 1000 rated player beat a 2000 rated player. But when the game is played by similar class players the one to safely know a couple of best moves in a sharp headbreaking position while the other needs to use his own brains and risk to lose by only one inaccurate move, the first one gets huge handicap, doesn't he?
By the way I don't think at all cheaters are everywhere. I believe there are few(or at least I hope so). And what I definitely did not mean was the easiness of catching cheaters. Quite the opposite.
27 Jun 08
Originally posted by RizhaninLet me try and be very logical about this.
I think using engine even 1 time during the game can often have tremendous effect on the result. Of course it wont help a 1000 rated player beat a 2000 rated player. But when the game is played by similar class players the one to safely know a couple of best moves in a sharp headbreaking position while the other needs to use his own brains and risk to lose ...[text shortened]... And what I definitely did not mean was the easiness of catching cheaters. Quite the opposite.
If you are suggesting that a single move can impact dramatically on a game that would imply that it is a key move in a very important position.
Very few players will be good enough to know which positions are so important that the key move could win or lose the game for them. In fact to know this would imply that you are already a very strong player and only need to blunder check the most advanced and complex tactical positions.
This being the case it would be exceeding unlikely that any player graded below 1800 could even identify such a position. Players graded above 1800 might be able to identify them but checking a single move in a game against a player graded 400 points above them will again be unlikely to impact upon the result.
For a single move to really matter someone must already be very strong, i.e. probably above 2200 and using the engine to blunder check the sharpest tactical lines. And you are quite right to be concerned here as if such strong players use an engine to blunder check their most important moves the likelihood of proving this is extremely small.
In fact there has been suspicions that at least 1 of the top 10 players does exactly this but these are mere suspicions for there is no proof.
27 Jun 08
Originally posted by Dragon FireYes, blunder checking lines is what I meant. The necessary level of 2200 is disputable though...
For a single move to really matter someone must already be very strong, i.e. probably above 2200 and using the engine to blunder check the sharpest tactical lines. And you are quite right to be concerned here as if such strong players use an engine to blunder check their most important moves the likelihood of proving this is extremely small.
Ok, never mind. Let's enjoy chess 🙂
27 Jun 08
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Originally posted by !~TONY~!You'd be wrong as usual. Your arrogance that your two month, absence filled stint as a Game Mod gives you superior knowledge of cheat detection than people who have been doing it (successfully) for years is laughable.
I don't think anyone outside the 5 game mods really understands what it's like to have to prove without a doubt that someone is a cheat. You can't just compare his games to any engine you choose and be like, "Well, these match up rates seem pretty damn high. Ban him." There's a lot of thought, a lot of math, and a lot of extra digging and work that needs to doubt in my mind that no1 would be convinced he's a complete cheat. And he'd be wrong.
27 Jun 08
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Originally posted by Dragon FireDF: In fact there has been suspicions that at least 1 of the top 10 players does exactly this but these are mere suspicions for there is no proof.
Let me try and be very logical about this.
If you are suggesting that a single move can impact dramatically on a game that would imply that it is a key move in a very important position.
Very few players will be good enough to know which positions are so important that the key move could win or lose the game for them. In fact to know this would imp ...[text shortened]... t 1 of the top 10 players does exactly this but these are mere suspicions for there is no proof.
Would that a player used to state that he blunder checked in his profile be considered "some" proof?
A "centaur" is harder to spot than a James Woodley but there remain tell tale signs.
27 Jun 08
I've played 891 games here; over 100 were against already banned cheats or ones who left after being confronted with evidence of their cheating. At least another 30 games were against definite cheats (some of whom have been already reported to the Game Mods). "Minor" problem? I don't think so.
27 Jun 08
Originally posted by no1marauderI think you're taking half of what I say and then spinning it wildly out of control such that you can publicly lambast me. That's fine with me, as long as you know that we're on the same side, and that I also want to rid the site of cheaters. The attitude that "Everyone is cheating, and I'm gonna smoke their ass!" is just silly and unhelpful. Take a rational approach. All the top players should be regularly checked, anyone suspicious will be checked etc....The game mods will do the work, ban anyone who's without a doubt cheating. That's what I'm saying to you. Just because I don't think everyone's cheating doesn't mean I don't care no1. I wouldn't have been on the game mod team had I not wanted the same thing you did. And forgive me for having my laptop overheat during finals. You're right in that I should have been more concerned about whether or not nmdavidb was cheating than my finals in Viscous Flow Theory and Computational Fluid Dynamics. Also let it be known that in my time as a game mod where I didn't have my own computer, I still made it to a computer every day to read the forum and wade through the necessary data to cast my opinion on all the necessary subjects. Just because I couldn't do the actual work myself doesn't mean I didn't do everything I could. You can attack me about whatever you want, but leave my priorities and work ethic alone, because they're both dead on buddy.
Yes, you both have the "Well, whaddya gonna do about cheaters?" attitude. The vast majority of players here reject that view which is not "correct".
27 Jun 08
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Originally posted by Dragon Fireas a recent 1700 (below 1800), I strongly disagree with this post. I think I'm pretty capable of understanding what positions are critical and determine which position to be tactically very suspicious, and if I were to consult an engine, say 3 moves per game, I believe my rating would be at least 50 points higher.
Let me try and be very logical about this.
If you are suggesting that a single move can impact dramatically on a game that would imply that it is a key move in a very important position.
Very few players will be good enough to know which positions are so important that the key move could win or lose the game for them. In fact to know this would imp ...[text shortened]... t 1 of the top 10 players does exactly this but these are mere suspicions for there is no proof.
27 Jun 08
1 edit
Originally posted by !~TONY~!You're attacking a Strawman. No one is saying "everybody is cheating". I am saying that there are many blatant cheats operating on the site. People who keep track of such things could probably name a couple dozen off the top of their heads. And analysis of their games would and does show this beyond any serious doubt. If the Game Mods don't agree with this, then their methods of analysis are faulty (which is possible) or more likely, than are applying a standard far more rigorous than appropriate for the task - as your "without a doubt" language suggests. And if they have been sending names to the Site Admins and the Site Admins have been sitting on them for "political" or other reasons, then the whole system is a farce.
I think you're taking half of what I say and then spinning it wildly out of control such that you can publicly lambast me. That's fine with me, as long as you know that we're on the same side, and that I also want to rid the site of cheaters. The attitude that "Everyone is cheating, and I'm gonna smoke their ass!" is just silly and unhelpful. Take a rationa eave my priorities and work ethic alone, because they're both dead on buddy.
However happy you are with your personal qualities, your statement "Being a game mod here, I think people blow up the amount of engine users on this site 50 fold" renders your judgment regarding engine use here dubious at best esp. when your experience in these matters is so limited (as you concede).