23 Jun 07
Originally posted by Northern LadThe sharpest line of the Fritz variation goes:
I was interested in Nigel Short's recent claim that 4.Ng5 ("a duffer's move" - Tarrasch) effectively refutes it, based on his game against Mark Hebden. Other than that, maybe the Fritz (5...Nd4) needs revisiting. Incicentally, the Traxler (Wilkes-Barre) Variation is quite wonderful but unfortunately quite unsound too. Shame!
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Ne6
8…Qh4 defines the Berliner line, which is quite unsound and I believe that there are two main lines that refute it. The primary stem game for the Berliner line is:
Estrin-Berliner; 5th CC World Ch Final 1965
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1224863
I currently have a game in this line – unfortunately it is much easier to refute a system theoretically than in practice.
Back to 8…Ne6:
9.Bxb5+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Qxd7 11.0-0 leads to a critical position in which white has an extra pawn, but does Black has sufficient counterplay?
Lines after
11…Be7
11…f5
?
23 Jun 07
Originally posted by ih8sensI am sorry, but you are quite wrong. Fritz can be programmed to play any rubbish the programmer wants. The Traxler is, I repeat, not sound. If, as you insist, it's the best response to the Two Knights Defence, how come no strong player ever plays it OTB? It's been analysed to death after all.
wait a minute.. the traxler is played by fritz. Fritz is programmed to play openings deemed good/sound. Traxler himself wouldn't have gotten as far as he did playing an unsound opening. I personally believe that not only is it sound, it's also the best line in the two knights defense.
23 Jun 07
Originally posted by Northern LadMaybe not sound, but great chances for black after:
I am sorry, but you are quite wrong. Fritz can be programmed to play any rubbish the programmer wants. The Traxler is, I repeat, not sound. If, as you insist, it's the best response to the Two Knights Defence, how come no strong player ever plays it OTB? It's been analysed to death after all.
1.e4...e5
2.Nf3...Nc6
3.Bc4...Nf6
4.Ng5...Bc5!?
5.Nxf7...Qe7
6.Nxh8...Bxf2!?
7.Kf1...Bb6
8.d3...d5
9.exd5...Qc5
Does white really seem full value for being R & P up?
White to play
Black has all sorts of tricks up his sleeve including:
Nd4, Nb4, Bg4, 0-0-0 to aid in the assault.
23 Jun 07
Originally posted by Squelchbelchunder any case, it is weaker in cc.
Maybe not sound, but great chances for black after:
1.e4...e5
2.Nf3...Nc6
3.Bc4...Nf6
4.Ng5...Bc5!?
5.Nxf7...Qe7
6.Nxh8...Bxf2!?
7.Kf1...Bb6
8.d3...d5
9.exd5...Qc5
Does white really seem full value for being R & P up?
White to play
[fen]r1b1k2N/ppp3pp/1bn2n2/2qPp3/2B5/3P4/PPP3PP/RNBQ1K1R w q - 0 10[/fen]
Black has all sorts of tricks up his sleeve including:
Nd4, Nb4, Bg4, 0-0-0 to aid in the assault.
Using d3 solves it for white I think, although I don't think white can get material. But I do think white would be able to get initiative.
What line would you play as white, Northern Lad?
23 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by RamnedI don't often play the Italian, but OTB I would probably play the safe 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5, when it's doubtful black has adequate compensation for the pawn. That's the main reason I gave up the Traxler a long time ago, though since then I've also seen some analysis in the sharper main lines 5.Nxf7 and 5.d4 which has cast doubt on the tactical soundness of the variation.
under any case, it is weaker in cc.
Using d3 solves it for white I think, although I don't think white can get material. But I do think white would be able to get initiative.
What line would you play as white, Northern Lad?
23 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by Northern LadThis is very true and anyone who doesnt believe this I advice them to read the surveys by Maarten de Zeeuw in the NIC yearbooks
I am sorry, but you are quite wrong. Fritz can be programmed to play any rubbish the programmer wants. The Traxler is, I repeat, not sound. If, as you insist, it's the best response to the Two Knights Defence, how come no strong player ever plays it OTB? It's been analysed to death after all.
De Zeeuw has been known to be one of the biggest experts in the traxler.
These surveys should be on the newinchess website (newinchess.com)
23 Jun 07
Originally posted by sannevssrI found the article your talking about I believe.
This is very true and anyone who doesnt believe this I advice them to read the surveys by Maarten de Zeeuw in the NIC yearbooks
De Zeeuw has been known to be one of the biggest experts in the traxler.
These surveys should be on the newinchess website (newinchess.com)
It doesn't neccesarily have me convinced but it makes a good argument. I think the wow factor is one of the key points in the traxler. Very few people have seen more than one or two lines in the traxler and wouldn't know what to do in an entirely original setting. In fact, because most masters don't play it, us CC players have an advantage of being able to pull out opponents out of book quite quickly in the traxler.
The way I look at it, you play the traxler and your opponent is stuck knowing that a single blunder will lose the game and he will have no idea what move to make because his database will fail him.
23 Jun 07
Originally posted by ih8sensthis is very true, and lets face it: under 2300 fide nearly everything is playable, especially if u know a certain line very well and feel comfortable playing it.
I found the article your talking about I believe.
It doesn't neccesarily have me convinced but it makes a good argument. I think the wow factor is one of the key points in the traxler. Very few people have seen more than one or two lines in the traxler and wouldn't know what to do in an entirely original setting. In fact, because most masters don't pla ...[text shortened]... lose the game and he will have no idea what move to make because his database will fail him.
23 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by sannevssrEven above.. I'll tell you right now that if I ever make it anywhere in chess the traxler will be why. It's a hard opening to refute even if it's simple on paper. Every single black move has a number of dangerous points to it. Lets face it, at our level most tactics are a case of attacking two different points at once.. the traxler is built for it.
this is very true, and lets face it: under 2300 fide nearly everything is playable, especially if u know a certain line very well and feel comfortable playing it.
Edit - It seems to me that the reason it isn't used so much at the master level is because the top players that face it pretty much always take the pawn with the bishop to give check instead of the fork. From there they back out and play it as if it was an italian game but up a pawn.
25 Jun 07
Originally posted by YugaHey, Yuga. How come you know so much on the Fritz? Where did you get all this info?
The sharpest line of the Fritz variation goes:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Ne6
8…Qh4 defines the Berliner line, which is quite unsound and I believe that there are two main lines that refute it. The primary stem game for the Berliner line is:
Estrin-Berliner; 5th CC World Ch Final 1965
http://www.chessgames. ...[text shortened]... e has an extra pawn, but does Black has sufficient counterplay?
Lines after
11…Be7
11…f5
?