There is much to be learnt from other people's games. The games of the Grand Masters are sometimes things of beauty (or is that a statement too far?). I studied many of Bronstein's games 30 or more years ago and it left me loving open games though since I started playing again after a 30+ year gap there is not much evidence of what I learnt. But if I continue to read (which I enjoy) and to play...
Originally posted by saffa73That's a very bad analogy. Even the weakest patzer can pick up a piece and move it to the correct square, providing he knows what move to make! However with tennis very few people could play a shot like Federer no matter how many videos they studied or how many hours coaching they had.
What if you played tennis instead of chess?
Would you watch top players like Nadal and Federer play on TV or live and then try and play your forehand like them, or serve like them etc.?
Or would you just go out on court and bang the ball about trying to get better?
Coaching in tennis is more like studying in chess. We can read the books and talk over the ideas with stronger players, but we still won't consistently find the moves that the Grandmasters find over the board.
Perhaps pigface has some wisdom to impart after all. Despite the fact that he has never read chess books, studied games, or used databases, his rating increased by 250 points in less than a month (29 Nov - 25 Dec '07). Bravo. What's your secret? (You should endeavor to imagine me silently poised with one hand cupping an ear.)
On second thought, it might not be another "methinks the lady doth protest too much" thread after all. Could it be simply that, having climbed to his current plateau, he is now facing a few opponents who have actually studied the game, and finds the going rough?
Forgive me if this point has been made already but if you play a move that is not in the book or the database then neither the book nor the database will not show a response to your move. The only difference is that you have probably made a weaker move. Now if your opponent is someone just following the book without thinking then they may not have the playing strength to "punish" the weaker move...so now you have what you want...a game without db's.
Some players have been known to throw in an early h3 or a3 just to throw people out of book.
Originally posted by Pigface1Getting better requires that you study books and databases if need be. If you ever reach the highest levels, then it will be like getting a PhD in algebra. Engines, on the other hand, are strictly prohibited during the course of a game if they are used to generate a move. However, they can be very handy when reviewing a game to determine where you went wrong. Everyone here plays by the same rules, so suck it up.
.....
Seriously,....I am getting peed off with all these playes who cannot play without looking at databases and using engines, I have never ever used any engines books or databasis to play for me! I have got my rating by playing totally by my own mind, I do not buy databases and do not read any books etc, I may never get any better than I am now but at ...[text shortened]... lease just play chess naturally, at least then you would know you earned any wins you might get!
Originally posted by Pigface1"Dishonest way to progress..."? You might as well argue: Why shouldn't Black move first? Or, why can't I King my pawn?
To the other replies, yes I know it is allowed her, I am not reffering to the use of such methods on this site, more in the general game of chess wherever it takes place. Does nobody else think that to use such methods is to not work it out and improve off of your own back?Maybe I am just ranting unfairly, it is not my intention to offend anybody at all, mo ...[text shortened]... any body else feels that this is a dishonest way to progress, or am I just being too @purist@ ?
Originally posted by Pigface1Do you feel the same about music? I bet you feel that musicians shouldn't have access to scores or symphonies and recording performances since they didn't come up with them originally?
I dont consider it unfiar, more dishonest, I guess its only my opinion but its just the way I feel, and I can seriously honestly say I have never used any form of studying games or reading chess books in any form, that is totally true, every single move ive played in every game has been what I considered to be the best move, without using any form of outsid ...[text shortened]... reckon that players should not be relying on databases to know what move they are going to make.
Well I cant deny that I am in the minorty with my feelings, thanks all for putting it into perspective, two reply to two points, yes I did mean using a database during a game for the opening moves and yes there is an amount of pressure felt now I have hit stronger opponents, but please dont misunderstand, its not that I am whining because my games are tougher its just that I had quite a few games that had totally identical moves and I was missing the more random games I was having, that was what was bothering me the most, several games but may as well all be the same game if you know what I mean.
As for how I shot up 200 points, it was purely down to one 1350 tournament n which I have won every game so far bar one draw, thats what raised my rating, I think the highest opponent I beat was 1450 but most were under 1400 so my rating of 1500+ isnt strictly an accurate reflection on my playing skill, I would say that now I have plateaud I will probably drop back down to 1480 ish and stay there but who knows.
I began to take more times over my games and lessen my game load during this period and took them a little less casually than I was before, another thing that helped me raise so much was a game or two against a clan mate who discussed our games and gave me a different perspective on playing, I started looking at the moves my opponent could make but which I would normally never even glance at due to not being directly relevant to the current position, once I started doing that I realized that I spotted more potential threats than I used too and tha was a great help for my improvement too.
Thanks again for the helpful responses, sorry again for my poorly worded rant to start the thread 🙂
Originally posted by EarthwormThen
Sorry, I'm just trying to learn, but what happens after;
5. Bb3 Nxe4
6. Qe2 Qe7
?
7. QXe4 and white should win easily.
You would not play 6. Qe2 as black has better moves than 6. ... Qe7.
Instead you would play
6. Nc3 when after 6. ... NXc3; 7. dXc3 you intend to attack vigorously.
Now don't get me wrong here. I am not saying 5. Bb3 is a good move - I am saying it is not a bad move and it gets your opponent out of his DB. There are better moves but they are in the DB so you do not want to play them. The trade off is you accept a slightly inferior position to achieve this.
Lets say that black now tries logical development with 7. ... Be7, then 8. Qd5 and white stands better. 7. Qf6 or Qe7 allow 7. ... Ng5, eg 7. ... Qe7; 8. Ng5 ... Nd8; 9. 0-0 and white has adequate compensation for his pawn.
In fact 7. ... h6 would be the best move but even then you have plenty of chances and would a weaker opponent relying on a DB be able to cope.
Originally posted by Pigface1[Event "Club Championship"]
.....
Seriously,....I am getting peed off with all these playes who cannot play without looking at databases and using engines, I have never ever used any engines books or databasis to play for me! I have got my rating by playing totally by my own mind, I do not buy databases and do not read any books etc, I may never get any better than I am now but at ...[text shortened]... lease just play chess naturally, at least then you would know you earned any wins you might get!
[Site "Crawley Chess Club"]
[Date "31.01.2008"]
[White "M. Gabor"]
[Black "S. Collyer"]
[TimeControl "42 in 90"]
[Result "0-1"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Bc5 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.d3 O-O 6.Bg5 d6 7.Nd5 Na5 8.Bxf6 gxf6 9.c3 Nxc4 10.dxc4 c6 11.b4 cxd5 12.bxc5 dxe4
13.Nh4 Qa5 14.O-O Qxc5 15.Qd5 Qxd5 16.cxd5 Bd7 17.Rac1 Rfc8 18.c4 Rc5 19.Rc3 b5 20.Rfc1 bxc4 21.Rxc4 Rac8 22.Rxc5 Rxc5 23.Rd1
Ba4 24.Rb1 Bd7 25.Rb8+ Kg7 26.h3 Rxd5 27.Rb7 Be6 28.Rxa7 Rd1+ 29.Kh2 Rd2 30.a4 Rxf2 31.Kg1 e3 32.Rc7 Ra2 33.Ra7 d5 34.Kf1 d4
35.Nf3 Bc4+ 36.Kg1 Ra1+ 37.Kh2 e2 38.Nh4 e1=Q 39.Nf5+ Kg6 40.Ne7+ Kg5 41.Nf5 Kxf5 42.g4+ Kf4
0-1
Play OTB if you're worried about cheating types. Saves a lot of hassle.
😉
When I play here the most I do is print off the position and sit (in my back pocket) on it and work everything out myself. I never "analyze" the position and hate it when I see my friends do it. It's just bad habits and leads to more.
I have a large collection of books and study books. Mostly just puzzles because I feel that I don't understand the game enough to really look deeper than books designed for
Originally posted by ThomasRemkusBad habits?! WTF?
When I play here the most I do is print off the position and sit (in my back pocket) on it and work everything out myself. I never "analyze" the position and hate it when I see my friends do it. It's just bad habits and leads to more.
Analyzing is part of becoming a good player at any form of the game. This is a habit that should be encouraged, not disdained.
Originally posted by SwissGambitI'm certain that extensive use of the analyse board function here is a liabilty to OTB play though.
Bad habits?! WTF?
Analyzing is part of becoming a good player at [b]any form of the game. This is a habit that should be encouraged, not disdained.[/b]
I would hope that players do realize that IT IS CHEATING to use databases and online research etc DURING the game. Its kind of stupid to look up every opening move while playing and think you are playing real chess.
I see no problem using those tools to analyze past games though.