Databases are universally allowed in CC and expressly permitted on RHP by the TOS. So there's nothing "dishonest" about using one. Personally I go a step further than that and simply state in my profile that as the TOS allows them, I will be using them.
I think too that you have an overly simplified view of how database usage works. It can't win the game for you, and whatever edge it can give you is equaled by the one it gives your opponent, who is free to use a DB as well. Also, even when you do use one, it takes some effort to use it properly and ensure its not leading you down some blind alley where a line looks good only because it was so heavily played before the refutation was found. In which case the database results will be skewered to show the line as looking much better than what it is, until you get to the critical junction where even though 100 games were played with say 11. Nxc3, only 5 were played with 11. Bxc3 because after that novelty was discovered and proven to be strong, the line was subsequently abandoned.
At best, the DB if used intelligently and with care can help guide you throw the opening and into the type of middle game you want to play, though you still have to play it no matter if you get a slight edge or not. At worst it leads you down a dark alley and you discover too late that you're playing a line that's been refuted.
Originally posted by Pigface1challenge me. I never use them
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Seriously,....I am getting peed off with all these playes who cannot play without looking at databases and using engines, I have never ever used any engines books or databasis to play for me! I have got my rating by playing totally by my own mind, I do not buy databases and do not read any books etc, I may never get any better than I am now but at ...[text shortened]... lease just play chess naturally, at least then you would know you earned any wins you might get!
Of course, using an engine is cheating, but using a database is not.
I don't use databases because I don't want to put that much work into it. But I don't mind my opponents doing it. I don't think any advantage (if any) lasts long, because as soon as I make a move that's not in the database, their database is useless from that point on, and it's just your ordinary dogfight.
Originally posted by Pigface1Seriously....
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Seriously,....I am getting peed off with all these playes who cannot play without looking at databases and using engines, I have never ever used any engines books or databasis to play for me! I have got my rating by playing totally by my own mind, I do not buy databases and do not read any books etc, I may never get any better than I am now but at ...[text shortened]... lease just play chess naturally, at least then you would know you earned any wins you might get!
I use books and databases all the time because I can and because I want to improve.
Their use has added 150-200 points to where it would be if I didn't use them and it has helped me improve OTB. I am sorry but my sole objective here is to improve OTB play and reading and learning from my books is a critical part of that.
Originally posted by Pigface1You could try to play a game of Fischer Random. There is a site I played on that has that as an option. Schelingmind.com if I am remembering correctly. Your point is pretty much what Fischer had in mind when he was promoting it.
To the other replies, yes I know it is allowed her, I am not reffering to the use of such methods on this site, more in the general game of chess wherever it takes place. Does nobody else think that to use such methods is to not work it out and improve off of your own back?Maybe I am just ranting unfairly, it is not my intention to offend anybody at all, mo ...[text shortened]... any body else feels that this is a dishonest way to progress, or am I just being too @purist@ ?
My experience is that most strong players combine the use of databases/opening encyclopedia with the detailed study of a few specific openings, for which they use monographies (books or CD's on a limited set of openings and GM-games played in these openings). The latter gives them the know how to play openings better through increased understanding, while the former is more a way to 'survive' the opening when the opponent has stepped out of your opening repertoire. I don't believe that unless you are an expert or better, the use of databases in itself will help you to play better chess, other than the fact that by using them you get more opportunities to play middlegames from acceptable positions.
Originally posted by Pigface1FYI here is my method...
To the other replies, yes I know it is allowed her, I am not reffering to the use of such methods on this site, more in the general game of chess wherever it takes place. Does nobody else think that to use such methods is to not work it out and improve off of your own back?Maybe I am just ranting unfairly, it is not my intention to offend anybody at all, mo ...[text shortened]... any body else feels that this is a dishonest way to progress, or am I just being too @purist@ ?
1. Observe position.
2. Work out my plan, opponents plan, modify my plan if needed.
3. If early in game, compare my plan to database. If in there without horrendous results (bad % historically or bad score in the past couple of years).
4. If DB suggested something else. Analyze myself to figure out why.
compare my plan to GM games.
5. Decide whether to play my move or DB move.
Note that 90% of the time I went with a DB move when I wasn't able to figure out the why of it , I lost the game.
Originally posted by Pigface1Quick question - when you were taught how to play chess, did someone just tell you the moves and leave you to work everything else out for yourself, or have you been told about certain tactics, ideas about trying to develop your pieces in the opening, etc?
I dont consider it unfiar, more dishonest, I guess its only my opinion but its just the way I feel, and I can seriously honestly say I have never used any form of studying games or reading chess books in any form, that is totally true, every single move ive played in every game has been what I considered to be the best move, without using any form of outside source, I would wager that not many can say that.
If the first, then well done. You're extraordinarily unusual. Possibily unique.
If the second, then you're wrong when you say you've never used an outside source.
Originally posted by Pigface1Are you a little bit hypersensitive ?
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Seriously,....I am getting peed off with all these playes who cannot play without looking at databases and using engines, I have never ever used any engines books or databasis to play for me! I have got my rating by playing totally by my own mind, I do not buy databases and do not read any books etc, I may never get any better than I am now but at ...[text shortened]... lease just play chess naturally, at least then you would know you earned any wins you might get!
I am not entirely sure about the engine accusation.
Against lower-rated players who suddenly play a very good game now and again, they just did well that day. For top-rated players, they probably don't need a database and will use originality.
Also, can anyone tell me why people would spend ages on an anonymous chess site not even playing before being banned?
(I take Golden King as my example of this; what a colossal waste of time.)
This is straying way off of what I actually meant
I have not nor am I trying to accuse any one of anything, I was having a mini rant last night after getting in from the pub so I apologize for my slightly rash method of explaining what I mean.
I shall try to rewrite what I was trying to say.
I personally think that to get better and get to higher ratings it seems to be very important to use databases and opening books etc etc, what I dont like about this is that to me it feels like I am just copying a stronger player for a while to get me into the middle game, this to me personally seems like cheating and puts me off of wanting to use these methods, however, I realize that I may never get better if I dont start to study in these ways so I am slightly irritated that I cannot decide myself if it is right to do this or not.
What everyone else does is not actually a problem for me, I am not saying nor have I said that players who do use these are definitely cheating, I just said that to me it seems like a dishonest way to improve, sort of like borrowing someones homework to copy if you know what I mean.
Somebody mentioned that I may be suggesting that I am better than people that use DBs etc, again this is not true, I never said or claimed that I am better or somehow more "noble" than people who do, I know I am a very mediocre player who will probably always be mediocre so this is not some kind of ego trip on my behalf.
I am at conflict with myself because I cant decide if I should use the methods I have been talking about, not whether the site should allow it etc etc.
I posted this to get other peoples views on whether they felt that it is not really doing the work yourself, so to the ones that offered their opinion on why it is acceptable I thank you.
My tone and the way I phrased myself was rather blunt and vague in places so again for that I do apologize, I had had too much beer and typed quicker than I thought 🙂
I want to also say that I do not suspect any kind of cheating or foul play by any of my opponents or indeed anyone at all.
Bottom line is that I feel the above methods means that you are not really doing the work and discovering good openings yourslef, I wanted to know if anyone else feels that way, or am I being too unrealistic in expecting to get better at chess without ever using these methods?
(maybe I shouldve phrased it like that to begin with 🙂 )
Originally posted by mtthwI cant honestly remember when or how I learned the moves, but I do know that I used to play a player that advised me about controlling the centre and about trying to win exchanges etc etc, the basic concepts, I honestly havent read chess books or studied openings etc, thats what I mean by not having used outside sources, no books no software, I just learned with friends and discussed our games with them.
Quick question - when you were taught how to play chess, did someone just tell you the moves and leave you to work everything else out for yourself, or have you been told about certain tactics, ideas about trying to develop your pieces in the opening, etc?
If the first, then well done. You're extraordinarily unusual. Possibily unique.
If the second, then you're wrong when you say you've never used an outside source.