01 Feb 08
Originally posted by zin23I wish you would realize that it IS NOT cheating to use data and books at RHP or in ANY correspondence chess game. This is not OTB where you can't use these tools.
I would hope that players do realize that IT IS CHEATING to use databases and online research etc DURING the game. Its kind of stupid to look up every opening move while playing and think you are playing real chess.
I see no problem using those tools to analyze past games though.
Calling something cheating because you THINK it is doesn't make it cheating, it makes you ignorant on the subject.
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01 Feb 08
1 edit
Originally posted by PhlabibitYeah I agree.. databases and books are just parts of CC rules.. If you don't like rules of the game, well... don't play it.
I wish you would realize that it IS NOT cheating to use data and books at RHP or in ANY correspondence chess game. This is not OTB where you can't use these tools.
Calling something cheating because you THINK it is doesn't make it cheating, it makes you ignorant on the subject.
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01 Feb 08
1 edit
Correspondence Chess is a slightly different game for the very reason that you can use books/databases and the analyze board function. Not using these tools is like playing an inferior line - you set yourself at a disadvantage.
If you don't like this, then start playing OTB or blitz.
If you are playing for the personal development of your OTB skills, then by all means, don't use databases or books, but don't expect your opponents not to.
This is probably all a reiteration of previous posts... but oh well, its worth a measly 2 cents.
02 Feb 08
Originally posted by SquelchbelchThe ability to analyze thoroughly without moving pieces comes after the ability to analyze thoroughly with moving pieces. You have to learn to walk before you can run.
I'm certain that extensive use of the analyse board function here is a liabilty to OTB play though.
02 Feb 08
Originally posted by zin23No, it is not cheating. In fact, it is expressly permitted by most correspondence chess sites [including this one] and organizations.
I would hope that players do realize that IT IS CHEATING to use databases and online research etc DURING the game. Its kind of stupid to look up every opening move while playing and think you are playing real chess.
I see no problem using those tools to analyze past games though.
What's really stupid is to ignore the rich depth of chess theory that has developed over the years. Chess is a game of knowledge, not just raw brainpower. The great players in the world, both in correspondence and over the board, have spent tons of hours learning theory of all kinds. You simply can't be a good player without it.
Feel free to continue playing chess in the dark ages if you wish. Just don't expect others to join you.
02 Feb 08
I really feel sorry for all of you if you actually consult the 'data' while you play - You will not improve much and when the time comes to play a real game you will do badly ..
Besides where is the fun in playing?
It is quite obvious that you can never reach GM level by studying so why bother? Believe me to be 2200+ you have to have tactical vision - in many ways some of this comes naturally.
One more thing - I dont particularly care if you do it when you play me - but whats the point of playing when you can't see the moves?
Chess is all about tactics that you can visualize - opening theory is really useless if you dont have adequate tactical skillset .
The best way to improve is through play - That knowledge you harp upon is other people finding those moves otb.
02 Feb 08
Originally posted by ChessJesterWhat is analyze board?
Correspondence Chess is a slightly different game for the very reason that you can use books/databases and the analyze board function. Not using these tools is like playing an inferior line - you set yourself at a disadvantage.
If you don't like this, then start playing OTB or blitz.
If you are playing for the personal development of your OTB skill ...[text shortened]... s is probably all a reiteration of previous posts... but oh well, its worth a measly 2 cents.
Does this mean I can use a computer to play then?
02 Feb 08
1 edit
Originally posted by zin23Listen... this is a new chess to you, as it was to me 4 years or so ago. I was reluctant to use data, wanting to make EVERY move with my brain.
I really feel sorry for all of you if you actually consult the 'data' while you play - You will not improve much and when the time comes to play a real game you will do badly ..
Besides where is the fun in playing?
It is quite obvious that you can never reach GM level by studying so why bother? Believe me to be 2200+ you have to have tactical vision - in prove is through play - That knowledge you harp upon is other people finding those moves otb.
When I was a kid I learned chess and I thought the game consisted of making a good move, and hopes the other guy didn't see my move.
Next, I played some friends who beat me a bit more often than I liked, I always considered myself the best... because I had been until I played these 2 guys.
I went and purchased a book, and I learned about some standard openings, and I learned to work my pawns together and mating combinations for finishing off the game.
Next, I came to RHP and there are people who use book during a game! I was outraged as you are. By no means do I even today use data and book for all my games, but I sure will use it when I'm playing a stronger player.
With books and such I am learning while I play an opening. Book and data only get you so far in each game. A book might bring you 23 moves, but only if the other guy is using a book.
If you don't use a book, you'll be out around move 8 or sooner, and no one has access to data and book anymore. If you're getting behind by move 8 or so, you've played a poor begining anyway, and now the 2 players are there to finish the game using only their brains.
There are no books and data on a bad opening with a strong advantage, the player is playing on their own now. Books are not a magic tomb of knowledge to finish every game ever, they are just info on set lines of play that anyone can leave with an advantage or disadvantage from that point on.
I don't expect to convert you, but you need to realize that it's a handy tool to expand your game and learn while you play... and you can play OTB all day if you like, no one is going to use data.
But I'm learning things when I use data, and when I play you otb I have an improved game from what I learned here... I've had 4 years to see it happen.
OTB and correspondence chess are 2 different things. We can play here at RHP either way, and you can request no data in your games. Me and many others would play a game without data if thats what you prefer, some users even will write that in their profile or agree with a simple PM.
All I'm trying to say is data and book use during a game at RHP HAS GOT to be allowable, since there is always a game going on and you can't just quit all your games so you can go study a book or data. The games take a long time, and you always have a game going. You must be able to study while playing, telling people they can't study would only make us all worse players.
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02 Feb 08
Originally posted by zin23You'll need a computer to use the analyze board, and to access data.
What is analyze board?
Does this mean I can use a computer to play then?
You can use your computer to visit web sites about chess, and visit web sites to play chess.
You can not use your computer to run an engine or access tablebase endings to help you with a game in progress.
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02 Feb 08
Originally posted by zin23The point of using databases and consulting books while playing is to enrich your knowledge of a particular opening system through study (books and databases) in conjunction with a practical application of the opening (the CC game). The combination of the two is a big part of what makes CC unique and is alone enough to draw OTB players to it; I know it was my major reason for joining RHP, and this type of practical opening study (through application of the opening in a CC game that I'm studying) is the only opening study I do.
I really feel sorry for all of you if you actually consult the 'data' while you play - You will not improve much and when the time comes to play a real game you will do badly ..
Besides where is the fun in playing?
It is quite obvious that you can never reach GM level by studying so why bother? Believe me to be 2200+ you have to have tactical vision - in ...[text shortened]... prove is through play - That knowledge you harp upon is other people finding those moves otb.
Thus, you have it rather backward about how I'll do "when the time comes to play a real game", since the practical knowledge gained from my CC games via database/book research is knowledge I wouldn't have gained otherwise, and knowledge that will carry over to my OTB games since the research increases my overall level of understanding. By the way, I think many hardcore CC players would find your comment about CC chess not being "real" objectionable. You may not like the rules, but its nevertheless a serious form of chess all the same.
As to the "fun" aspect, the database might help steer you through the opening, but it doesn't win the game for you. The fun lies in the research itself and the challenge of looking through the many possibilities for the stronger lines that lead to positions you want; and eventually the game departs known lines and the fun the becomes trying to convert any slight edge you may or may not have achieved into a win.
As to using the analysis board, I used to think it might lead to laziness or even affect chess visualization but I've since changed my mind. If anything, it'll help you analyze deeper and more accurately but not without some considerable effort. It won't impact your visualization or tactical ability at all. Those skills you either have or you don't, and wherever you are there you increase it with conventional tactics puzzles to increase pattern recognition and calculation ability. The analysis board is irrelevant.
Lastly, as a 1400 rated player you haven't earned the rating yet to qualify you to preach about the "best way to improve". Although rating aside, the faulty ideas you display here shows you still have only an elementary understanding of chess, far too elementary for one so dogmatic and opinionated.
02 Feb 08
Originally posted by zin23I really feel sorry for all of you
I really feel sorry for all of you if you actually consult the 'data' while you play - You will not improve much and when the time comes to play a real game you will do badly ..
Besides where is the fun in playing?
It is quite obvious that you can never reach GM level by studying so why bother? Believe me to be 2200+ you have to have tactical vision - in ...[text shortened]... prove is through play - That knowledge you harp upon is other people finding those moves otb.
Trust me, it's not nearly as bad as we all feel for you right now. The more you post, the more you reveal how ignorant and naive you are about correspondence chess and how it is played.
You will not improve much and when the time comes to play a real game you will do badly
These are real games.
Besides where is the fun in playing?
The fun is in getting practice with your favorite opening lines. It is not just that you read them out of a database; it is also that you get practice playing the typical positions that arise after you leave the book line.
It is quite obvious that you can never reach GM level by studying so why bother?
Some people just want to try to raise their rating 100 points or so. What's wrong with that?
One more thing - I dont particularly care if you do it when you play me - but whats the point of playing when you can't see the moves?
See above about learning how to play an opening system.
Chess is all about tactics that you can visualize - opening theory is really useless if you dont have adequate tactical skillset
Sure, tactics are important, but playing good openings gives you better positions which result in more tactical opportunities.
The best way to improve is through play
Play against stronger players helps, yes. But this is because you learn how to borrow their ideas for use in your future games. Again, this idea of yours that somehow you can play without using other people's moves and ideas is a myth.
That knowledge you harp upon is other people finding those moves otb.
So what?
An additional point: opening databases are widely available. Both sides should be able to see roughly the same book lines. So, if you play a popular book line, odds are that your opponent will be able to follow it in a database too. The playing field is level.
02 Feb 08
2 edits
Originally posted by scandiumMy thoughts exactly! I care most about my OTB play and I use RHP as a tool for testing new opening ideas or just expanding my horizons in other ways.
The point of using databases and consulting books while playing is to enrich your knowledge of a particular opening system through study (books and databases) in conjunction with a practical application of the opening (the CC game). The combination of the two is a big part of what makes CC unique and is alone enough to draw OTB players to it; I know it was understanding of chess, far too elementary for one so dogmatic and opinionated.
CC is still real chess, but a different form. It is good for trying to get to the ultimate chess truth - if there is any. It tends to be much more accurate and methodical. On the other hand, OTB is probably most representative of chess strength since you're really on your own with your knowledge, understanding and ability. It's a much tenser battle for me also because of time and the face to face nature of it all. Still, I like both very much.
BTW: Don't tell me I can't become a GM! 😉
02 Feb 08
Lastly, as a 1400 rated player you haven't earned the rating yet to qualify you to preach about the "best way to improve". Although rating aside, the faulty ideas you display here shows you still have only an elementary understanding of chess, far too elementary for one so dogmatic and opinionatedFirst of all I am not a 1400 player - (certainly not on this site) .
I am not talking about preaching about improving your game. I am basically hinting at another thread I was involved in that there is more to chess than studying - IQ has a lot to do with being *really good*.
That is you can study all you want (and you will improve) but you will never become say a GM.
I understand chess far more than you so much so that I make my own chess variants.
And no, I am very well aware of most opening lines - and I do use the 'help' I was just saying I dont like doing it during the game that is all.
So stop overreacting. I didn't realize it was ok to consult with other material DURING the game. now I know No big deal move on!