27 Jan 08
1 edit
I didn't use opening databases on this site for ages, because I considered it unfair. However towards the end I did start to use them as I had reached a plateau ratings-wise and decided that I wasn't going to progress unless I started using them. To be honest it took away from my enjoyment of the games and if I had my time again I wouldn't use opening databases.
I don't know if endgame tables are allowed on this site, but I would never use these as this would definitely be cheating in my eyes as you are simply following a clear path to victory without having to use any of your own chess skills at all.
27 Jan 08
Originally posted by Pigface1well, if you had a GM coach, would you consider playing by his teachings to be copying his ideas, or learning?
This is straying way off of what I actually meant
I have not nor am I trying to accuse any one of anything, I was having a mini rant last night after getting in from the pub so I apologize for my slightly rash method of explaining what I mean.
I shall try to rewrite what I was trying to say.
I personally think that to get better and get to higher ...[text shortened]... without ever using these methods?
(maybe I shouldve phrased it like that to begin with 🙂 )
27 Jan 08
1 edit
Originally posted by wormwoodI once (twenty years ago!) played an adjournment against a very good friend of John Speelman. Speelman spent many hours analysing the game with my opponent and pointing out winning plans etc. I knew all this was going on and didn't consider it cheating at all. On my side I had two 200+ strength club mates helping me and in the end my team won as I managed to convert my advantage (KB+3 vs K+6) into a win over the board in the resumed game.
well, if you had a GM coach, would you consider playing by his teachings to be copying his ideas, or learning?
I miss adjournments. Nowadays every league seems to use quick-play finishes. I learnt a lot about the ending in the adjournments I had when I was young, whereas nowadays all you need to study is how to make the position confusing if you are losing.
27 Jan 08
Originally posted by Fat LadyThats what I fear, starting to use books and databases etc then feeling I am no longer playing my own game, I think like you said that for me personally it would marr the enjoyment of playing if I do so I am in conflict with myself at whether to adopt the methods that most if not all the good players use.
I didn't use opening databases on this site for ages, because I considered it unfair. However towards the end I did start to use them as I had reached a plateau ratings-wise and decided that I wasn't going to progress unless I started using them. To be honest it took away from my enjoyment of the games and if I had my time again I wouldn't use opening datab ...[text shortened]... following a clear path to victory without having to use any of your own chess skills at all.
I am trying to decide myself if it is nessecary to do so or not, I am not in anyway suggesting that these players are infact cheating as I clearly know that it is not a black and white subject.
@ Wormwood
That is a good point about having a GM coach, I guess I would have to say that playing a GM and letting him/her show you why your moves are woodpushing noob moves and why his/hers are sound and recommended would not be at all unfair or cheating yet at the same time I dont feel comfiortable with the idea of starting to use a database that most recommend doing, the problem is with me not with how others play their games, I just wanted to hear peoples thoughts on this, I suspect I am being unrealistic in expecting to just naturally find good openings myself without using a database but I would really like to improve without such methods, is it even possible to attain a strong (say for example 1800) level of play without resorting to databases and engines to analize etc ?
27 Jan 08
Originally posted by Pigface1Using books or databases doesn't mean you have to make the moves they suggest. If you don't understand why a move that looks good to you is considered bad, it can sometimes be useful to play the move and see how it works out - very likely you will then see why it was indeed a bad idea. Or sometimes you may want to play a move that isn't considered the best, but that you feel fits your style better. Using books and databases isn't about blindly following other people's play or ideas, it's about learning from others, thinking through different variations, and ultimately finding your own move.
Thats what I fear, starting to use books and databases etc then feeling I am no longer playing my own game, I think like you said that for me personally it would marr the enjoyment of playing if I do so I am in conflict with myself at whether to adopt the methods that most if not all the good players use.
I am trying to decide myself if it is nessecary to ...[text shortened]... t these players are infact cheating as I clearly know that it is not a black and white subject.
But anything that has to do with chess is a black and white subject. 😉
27 Jan 08
Originally posted by Pigface11800 is perfectly possible. following basic opening principles and having a reasonable tactical level will allow you to survive openings. you'll probably come out a little behind, but it's not really that deciding on our level.
Thats what I fear, starting to use books and databases etc then feeling I am no longer playing my own game, I think like you said that for me personally it would marr the enjoyment of playing if I do so I am in conflict with myself at whether to adopt the methods that most if not all the good players use.
I am trying to decide myself if it is nessecary to ...[text shortened]... (say for example 1800) level of play without resorting to databases and engines to analize etc ?
but, thinking you could crack openings by yourself is like thinking you could develop the bulk of quantum physics theory with no mathematical education. it's not going to happen. - opening theory is a dicipline which has been worked on for centuries by countless of extremely strong players. guys who know what their predecessors have found, and who have devoted their lives on researching opening theory. you're not going to be able to just think your way through it all without help.
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27 Jan 08
Originally posted by Pigface1I certainly think a lot of people at the 1700 level don't use databases or opening books much, based on my experience in games.
... is it even possible to attain a strong (say for example 1800) level of play without resorting to databases and engines to analize etc ?
So I say, sure you can get to 1800 without using databases. Just being a good tactician with a modicum of positional sense ought to be good enough. The vast majority of my wins are some sort of tactical "oops" on my opponents part, so I'd start there if you want to improve.
27 Jan 08
Originally posted by Pigface1It's just a matter of degree though - same principle. Learn from those that know more than you do. If they know much more than you, you might be able to learn quicker.
I cant honestly remember when or how I learned the moves, but I do know that I used to play a player that advised me about controlling the centre and about trying to win exchanges etc etc, the basic concepts, I honestly havent read chess books or studied openings etc, thats what I mean by not having used outside sources, no books no software, I just learned with friends and discussed our games with them.
27 Jan 08
Although the vast majority of my personal games[69.35 percent to date]are and were regular one hour to 2.5 hour games played over the board after almost eight years of many extensive study hours each week,all of my aquired opening theory knowledge has been gained by using all the legally acceptable knowledge tools at my disposal,including but not limited to published and non-published books and opening databases as and when available[which are no more than the information contained within the books]These I continue to use in on-line chess sites,correspondence and mail chess and in preparations for my over the board games and exibition chess,as an aid to memory as and when required. The use of opening book assistances has been and always will be an acceptable method of learning the reasoning behind chess opening theory in order to enhance the understanding of the theory and , in such circumstances can in no way be considered a method of achieving an 'unfair advantage'. These assistances are available to all those who seek a realistic method of increasing their understanding of chess opening theory within an acceptable time period,and consequently are an aid to better opening play.This knowledge is capable of being retained in memory better by some people than others,and therefore refering to such opening assistance also constitutes and aid to information memorization and recall.--
27 Jan 08
Originally posted by Pigface1If you really want to get your opponent out of a DB deviate early.
This is straying way off of what I actually meant
I have not nor am I trying to accuse any one of anything, I was having a mini rant last night after getting in from the pub so I apologize for my slightly rash method of explaining what I mean.
I shall try to rewrite what I was trying to say.
I personally think that to get better and get to higher ...[text shortened]... without ever using these methods?
(maybe I shouldve phrased it like that to begin with 🙂 )
For example look on gamesexplorer here which is a DB of past games played on this site.
You will see the most common opening is 1. e4 .. e5; 2. Nf3 .. Nc6; 3. Bb5 .. a6; 3. Ba4 .. Nf6.
Now as white 4. 0-0 is the most popular so don't play it. Only 2 people have played Bb3 and neither lost as white so play this move and your opponent is on his own.
As black after 4. 0-0 .. Be7; 5. Re1 consider something like 5. .. h6 which the DB has no games on and once again your opponent is on his own.
Its simple, choose your time and get your opponent out of book by playing an inferior but not bad line as soon as you can.
27 Jan 08
Originally posted by Dragon FireSorry, I'm just trying to learn, but what happens after;
If you really want to get your opponent out of a DB deviate early.
For example look on gamesexplorer here which is a DB of past games played on this site.
You will see the most common opening is 1. e4 .. e5; 2. Nf3 .. Nc6; 3. Bb5 .. a6; 3. Ba4 .. Nf6.
Now as white 4. 0-0 is the most popular so don't play it. Only 2 people have played Bb3 and nei ...[text shortened]... e and get your opponent out of book by playing an inferior but not bad line as soon as you can.
4. Bb3 Nxe4
5. Qe2 Qe7
?