@KellyJay saidI don't know any serious scientist who would make such a ludicrous claim. You're setting up a straw man, both here and at the Spirituality Forum.
Has scientism corrupted science?
As defined as
Scientism is the belief that science is the only source of knowledge about the world and that it can explain all aspects of reality.
Science does pretty well explaining material regularities, things such as seasons and chemical reactions and planetary motions and treatments for high blood pressure. It does very poorly, or not at all, 'explaining' unique incidents or where conscious agents are involved, and no serious scientists expect science to explain such things. Statistics can predict pretty well how a nation will vote (uncertainty about the forthcoming election in America notwithstanding), but does very poorly at predicting how any single voter will vote on a local bond issue, and no serious scientists expect science to explain such things. It does pretty well 'explaining' very large-scale historical trends, such as how the Roman Empire fell or what led up to the French revolution, but very poorly 'explaining' why Mark Twain is funny, and no serious scientists expect science to explain such things. Science does pretty well predicting who is likely to contract diabetes or have a heart attack. But very poorly predicting who is going to commit a murder or be homosexual or an Evangelical Christian, and no serious scientists expect science to explain such things.
@moonbus saidExplain blood pressure, how is that maintained, using science. Actually the whole circulatory system care to explain that using science.
I don't know any serious scientist who would make such a ludicrous claim. You're setting up a straw man, both here and at the Spirituality Forum.
Science does pretty well explaining material regularities, things such as seasons and chemical reactions and planetary motions and treatments for high blood pressure. It does very poorly, or not at all, 'explaining' unique incide ...[text shortened]... sexual or an Evangelical Christian, and no serious scientists expect science to explain such things.
@KellyJay
What do you suggest? using Tarot cards? Witchcraft?
You want to put down medical science but you are a code pusher so you are out of your depth on that one.
I assume you want science to show conclusively how we got here, not just figuring out circulation.
@sonhouse saidNo, have you ever seen me say such things? It is a simple question as it relates to all things we can know, are we limited to just those things science can tell us or is there more beyond the scope of science that is real and we know it through other means?
@KellyJay
What do you suggest? using Tarot cards? Witchcraft?
You want to put down medical science but you are a code pusher so you are out of your depth on that one.
I assume you want science to show conclusively how we got here, not just figuring out circulation.
@KellyJay
Are you saying we can't figure out the circulatory system, a pump that pumps blood inside tiny tubes creating a pressure differential that forces blood through the veins and arteries? Are you saying science cannot explain that? Which part can they not explain? The fact the heart beats regularly for decades?
That the heart pumps can't be explained at all?
What is it about the circulatory system you think science can't explain?
@sonhouse saidConcerning that question I'm saying we understand systems because we design them, we understand information processing because we design systems that process information. We understand the mechanism requirements for maintaining levels because we level check when we see all the necessary pieces that are required for that to take place, we always postulate a mind behind it, don't we? Mechanisms that cause start-stops of functions due to specific conditions and only those conditions aren't thrown together by accident in integrated systems, and we know this because we design integrated systems in circuits to carry out specified functionally complex work.
@KellyJay
Are you saying we can't figure out the circulatory system, a pump that pumps blood inside tiny tubes creating a pressure differential that forces blood through the veins and arteries? Are you saying science cannot explain that? Which part can they not explain? The fact the heart beats regularly for decades?
That the heart pumps can't be explained at all?
What is it about the circulatory system you think science can't explain?
The point of the thread is are we limited to science alone for all knowledge, and if we cannot know something by science does make it unknowable by any other means, does this belief solely in science pigeonhole us for things we can not that science is blind too. Science is good and useful, not saying it isn't.
@KellyJay
There you go again, GODDIDIT.
We don't look at the idea GODDIDIT when we want to figure out how the heart works. Scientists don't work that way, as much as that pissses you off, they go, what is the underlying cellular processes going on that makes a heart beat for decades? And lately they have found an evolutionary link to jellyfish, the way they propel themselves in the water, there is a genetic link to hearts.
But of course you will just move the goalpost and say that doesn't explain how they got here, which is not what those scientists are about.
The life origin question is a separate science in itself and a geneticist looks at the marvel of genes and how they work, not how they got here, separate scientific field completely.
And your underlying assumption is because you think GODDIDIT, no scientist will EVER be able to figure out how we got here, what kickstarted life on Earth.
@sonhouse saidScience can only work with what it can touch, measure, and quantify and it cannot touch, measure, and quantify a large portion of the universe we live in. If things even remotely point in that direction you have a cow. As much as you'd like to avoid it, seeing links could just as easily be found in a common design as well, and much to your displeasure seeing connections does not by necessity point to either one, but seeing the functional complex nature of them makes chance and necessity a non-starter.
@KellyJay
There you go again, GODDIDIT.
We don't look at the idea GODDIDIT when we want to figure out how the heart works. Scientists don't work that way, as much as that pissses you off, they go, what is the underlying cellular processes going on that makes a heart beat for decades? And lately they have found an evolutionary link to jellyfish, the way they propel themselv ...[text shortened]... DIDIT, no scientist will EVER be able to figure out how we got here, what kickstarted life on Earth.
You may as you wish, simply say if we cannot use science to know anything we can know nothing if you want, I think that isn't true and you know it.
@KellyJay
Carl Popper started the idea if you can't falsify a hypothesis it is not science.
So try falsifying Goddidit.
All you have are words in your bible, that is NOT a big bad god flashing into our world telling us how it is going to be.
That is left up to human writers claiming they got their words directly from god.
So falsify THAT. Those writers in my mind took too many magic mushrooms and just made stuff up, stuff that doesn't happen even a LITTLE bit now.
And OF COURSE you will jump into 'we see miracles every day'.
Good luck with that debating point.
@sonhouse saidYou brought up, that God did it, I'm here with this link asking if scientism is an error that can dilute science itself. We can look at the universe using inductive reasoning, searching for the best possible answer beyond a reasonable doubt, but that isn't proof, proof we can find in mathematics.
@KellyJay
Carl Popper started the idea if you can't falsify a hypothesis it is not science.
So try falsifying Goddidit.
All you have are words in your bible, that is NOT a big bad god flashing into our world telling us how it is going to be.
That is left up to human writers claiming they got their words directly from god.
So falsify THAT. Those writers in my mind too ...[text shortened]...
And OF COURSE you will jump into 'we see miracles every day'.
Good luck with that debating point.
We live in a world that is, as opposed to nothing, why? We live in a finely tuned universe that balances on precise values that if they fluctuated would collapse or fly apart, why? We see in life integrated systems within systems and a single cell we find the genetic code, that we can read, and see form and function occurring due to the information directing all of the processes, why? These things we see are taking place from the galactic to the microscopic, so is the universe we live in, any less a miracle than God raising Jesus from the dead?
@KellyJay
God raising Jesus from the dead. As far as I am concerned that never happened and never CAN happen. The state of the world right now is much worse than it was back in biblical days and no god is helping us, for instance such a god could snap its hypothetical fingers and get rid of all the nukes on the planet at one fell swoop.
Now, you figure your god made and loved life on Earth but now is doing nothing to stop a possible nuclear war that could kill off millions of SPECIES much less billions of humans.
That is saying to me there was no god involved in making our planet which is just one of many so Earth is not that unique.
If a real god made us and loved the life forms here, it would seem to me such a god would consider it murder to kill so many species besides killing most humans in a nuclear war. The fact that hasn't happened says either said god doesn't really care for life on Earth or WANTS it that way. Either way Humans and most other life forms here are totally screwed, we are a hairs breath away from nuclear war as we speak, Putin threatening to use nukes on Ukraine which would result in Europe or the US or both retaliating with the same and there we would be right in a nuclear war.
You want miracles? Pray for that one, the one its looks clear to me no help is coming to prevent it.
In fact, where was your god when we nuked Japan and killed hundreds of thousands in a flash?
@sonhouse saidYou think this fallen world where we can define ourselves by our lusts and perversions, where people no matter their views expect to be affirmed regardless of their depravities is going to be blessed by God, or should be?
@KellyJay
God raising Jesus from the dead. As far as I am concerned that never happened and never CAN happen. The state of the world right now is much worse than it was back in biblical days and no god is helping us, for instance such a god could snap its hypothetical fingers and get rid of all the nukes on the planet at one fell swoop.
Now, you figure your god made and l ...[text shortened]... nt it.
In fact, where was your god when we nuked Japan and killed hundreds of thousands in a flash?
I am more amazed at God’s long suffering and patience in letting the wickedness of man continue. The first two great commandments are love God and each other, when the vast majority of our conversations revolve around how much we hold each other in contempt, I don’t think we have a clue how bad we really are.
At the end it is supposed to get worse not better, the things people will do are simply going to get increasingly evil as we cast off our restraints. There is room for repentance now but only those willing to acknowledge their own sins can, others are their own standard for all things.