28 Oct 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipSonship, I'm going to let this go.Nice try, but I'm afraid the onus is on you to explain your strange cultish beliefs, not on me to come up with alternatives.
I think most posters here pro or con my explanations, can see this is a dodge.
I take it that you cannot even explain where my exegesis of [b]Isaiah 66:22-24 goes wrong.
[quote]
Whether I can or c ...[text shortened]... y apprehension of Isaiah 66:22-24 is misconstrued USING primarily Isaiah 66:22-24.[/b]
There is nothing to be gained in my further chasing you down on this strange belief and I do not intend to get dragged into the minutiae of scripture on this matter as there absolutely nothing you can say, no argument you can make and no scripture you can cite that will convince me that..
... god uses the lost by hanging them in chains of punishment as an everlasting warning to other worlds...
I'm not one to "dodge" debate and your accusation that I'm doing so is unfair and not upheld by my posting history; but I'm not going further with you on this particular issue as the hand is already played, the humour (as I saw it) spent out and I find the matter disappointing if I'm honest.
Edit: I regret starting this thread.
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28 Oct 14
Originally posted by CalJust
What I found to be unique (again, as far as I know) about sonships version is the "chains" and "examples to other worlds" that I have not come across before.
I take God's word as infallible. The prose which I used to express my thoughts on the eternal judgment I do not take as infallible. That was a poetic way of expressing something I see in God's infallible word.
So let's see if I have any biblical ground for such a thought.
1.) I wrote of those "hung in chains". There is nothing in Scripture about the lost hung in chains. I meant an inescapable situation.
Now Scripture does mention some particularly bad angels being in chains or bonds in Jude 6
New American Standard Bible
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
King James Bible
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
and He has kept, with eternal chains in darkness for the judgment of the great day, the angels who did not keep their own position but deserted their proper dwelling.
So my usage of the word "chains" probably was influenced by this passage about "eternal chains" confining evil angels under punishment.
It is reasonable to assume their incarceration albeit possibly described poetically, is for a deterrent to other beings that might want to imitate their evils.
Does it speak here of lost humans as well as evil angels? It does not speak specifically of humans. However, why should I doubt that lost human sinners do not partake of a similar fate when Jesus says to the lost in Matthew 25:41 -
" ... Go away from Me you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
It is not outlandish to fear that what has been prepared for the devil and his angels will be co-experienced then by these cursed. So hand waving over "hung in chains" as my poetic expression, is not all that significant.
So I have no passage speaking of all the lost "hung up in chains".
Jude 6 mentions eternal chains in regard to some particularly abominable evil angels.
Moving on to the matter of deterrence.
Divegeester was asked, and declined, to demonstrate WHY I should not consider the spectacle left for the saved in Isaiah 66:22-24 as having the effect of deterrence. I respect his right to discontinue speaking with me. But my point seems to stand.
Other ages of men in the new heavens and new earth will observe that no possible good eventually came from the men who rebelled against God. Why should I not consider that example of their abject crushing defeat and everlasting punishment as a deterrent.
"Then they will go forth and LOOK on the carcasses of the men who have transgressed against Me; For their worm will not die, Nor will their fire be quenched. And they will be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:24) [my emphasis]
It is reasonable to understand that the purpose for God leaving such a spectacle to be looked at is to show an example of what NOT to do IE. trangress against God.
Keep in mind that this is after probably eons and ages of His forbearance and toleration as He sought to reach various creatures with His mercy and forgiveness.
The glory to God part is connected with truth that God cannot be overthrown or defeated. The entire rebellion which led to the transgressions was born by the being Satan who sought to usurp the Most High.
Splitting hairs over the phrase "hung up in chains" is not that significant. To give credit where it should be due, I was loosely quoting Robert Govette from his book "Eternal Suffering of the Wicked and Hades" - a 228 page book specifically dealing with liberal scholars' objection to the doctrine of eternal suffering of damnation.
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28 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipI have to respectfully disagree Sonship.What I found to be unique (again, as far as I know) about sonships version is the "chains" and "examples to other worlds" that I have not come across before.
I take God's word as infallible. The prose which I used to express my thoughts on the eternal judgment I do not take as infallible. That was a poetic way of expressing something ...[text shortened]... ally dealing with liberal scholars' objection to the doctrine of eternal suffering of damnation.
To me, this is quite a reach. Eternal suffering just for an example?
Tell me how you would explain away these verses...
Ezek 28:17-19
17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.
18 "You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever."'"
NKJV
28 Oct 14
Originally posted by divegeesterYou have a very narrow mind dive.
Are you unable to give a coherent response to any post?
In sonship's scenario of unbelievers being in [b]"eternal woe" and "hung out in chains of punishment as a warning for other worlds"
Which part is the "baby" in your view?[/b]
sonship has posted pages of Biblical doctrine in this forum. So we don't agree with it all, but most of it is spot on.
But YOU, in your resentment of other Christian's views and opinions, are ready at every opportunity to bash not only what they say, but to make personal disparaging accusations and remarks.
28 Oct 14
Originally posted by josephwIs it right to "bash" the ideology that claims non-believers are burned for eternity in agony?
But YOU, in your resentment of other Christian's views and opinions, are ready at every opportunity to bash not only what they say, but to make personal disparaging accusations and remarks.
28 Oct 14
3 edits
Originally posted by josephwI'm not interested in your "hive mind" approach to assessing sonship's posts, I make my own judgements and if I'm shown or feel myself to be wrong then I will hold my hands up and say so.
You have a very narrow mind dive.
sonship has posted pages of Biblical doctrine in this forum. So we don't agree with it all, but most of it is spot on.
But YOU, in your resentment of other Christian's views and opinions, are ready at every opportunity to bash not only what they say, but to make personal disparaging accusations and remarks.
You seem very upset with me Joeseph, perhaps you would be better confronting me with your real issue instead of using the "sonship" topic as something to throw rocks from behind.
28 Oct 14
Originally posted by FMFThank you.
Is it right to "bash" the ideology that claims non-believers are burned for eternity in agony?
Some Christians accuse me of being the "friend of the atheist" (I know you're a theist) and yet it seems that it is pretty much only the non-Christians who can see past the personal to the actual topic.
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28 Oct 14
2 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiter
I have to respectfully disagree Sonship.
To me, this is quite a reach. Eternal suffering just for an example?
Tell me how you would explain away these verses...
Praise God. That's good for me, that you disagree with me a little bit.
That will go for my further transformation in Christ.
What's your objeection ?
Ezek 28:17-19
17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.
18 "You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever."'"
NKJV
I take the passage to be about Satan's origin. However, some of it may be appropriate to Satan's last manifestation in the Antichrist, who will be human.
The part about "turn you to ashes upon the earth" and doing so "in the sight of all who saw you" may be God including the MAN, the beast - Antichrist, in the scope of the prophecy. Admittedly, it is hard to think of a spiritual being being seen in ashes upon the earth.
If this was the ONLY passage about the future of Satan then I would agree that no eternal suffering is indicated. But as you know, in the progressive revelation of God, more details about Satan's judgment are disclosed latter, particularly Revelation 20:10.
"And the devil, who deceived them, [the Beast - Antichrist and his False Prophet] was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10)
So the situation of Ezekiel 28:19 is most likely further detailed in Rev. 10:10. I do not take the former truth to make untrue the latter.
Now "and shall be no more forever" should be taken then as not a loss of being, but a loss of well-being.
For "they" to be tormented has to mean that the 1,000 years already traversed in which the beast and the false prophet were thrown into the lake of fire, has not meant the end of their BEING.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And their Seducer, The Devil, was cast into The Lake of Fire and Brimstone where The Beast and The False Prophet are, and they shall be tormented day and night for the eternity of eternities.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
The devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were also thrown. They will be tortured day and night forever and ever.
Recovery Version
And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire ... , where the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
That this judged one "shall be no more" means a loss of welfare rather than a loss of existence.
This section of Ezekiel is called a lamentation (Ezek. 28:11-19). The word lamentation was also used to describe the deep grief of King David over the death of his beloved friend Jonathan who would not extricate himself from King Saul who turned into David's enemy (2 Sam. 1:17). It was also used for the national mourning of Israel for the death of a loved king Josiah (2 Chron. 35:25).
In the symbolic history of Satan's origin, it begins with the words - "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre ..." Yet what follows is much that could only be appropriate to a superhuman, supernatural being.
The passage of a "lamentation" for this Anointed Cherub may indicate that there was yet sorrow to be had for this being. But this was in the ancient pre-Adamic past. By the time Satan makes an appearance in the garden of Eden there is no hint of God still invoking lament for such a being. His opportunity for restitution has long passed.
God asks no questions of the serpent as He did of Adam and his wife. God immediately pronounces judgment - "Because you have done THIS ..." .
The implication being that his doom is inevitable and complete. Man's position is not to himself become a hopeless partner of the Devil through the rejection of God's gospel.
Satan will indeed be no more. Well, he'll be some more, but he'll be "tormented day and night forever and ever". His welfare and influence will be no more.
All whose names are not recorded in the book of life go to the same place. It should be assumed that the place in its entirety is no place to go - period.
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28 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipRevelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.I have to respectfully disagree Sonship.
To me, this is quite a reach. Eternal suffering just for an example?
Tell me how you would explain away these verses...
Praise God. That's good for me, that you disagree with me a little bit.
That will go for my further transformation in Christ.
What's your objeection ?
[quote]
...[text shortened]... the same place. It should be assumed that the place in its entirety is no place to go - period.
If Revelation were to be understood literally then you might be correct. However, Revelation is a book of symbols.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
As it is without doubt that the Bible uses symbolic as well as literal terminology, it is evident that we are required to discern the one from the other.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
We need to decide whether this lake of fire and brimstone is real or symbolic. The text tells us that the lake is (or represents) the second death.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
I believe the lake of fire to represent complete destruction for the following reasons:
Death cannot be literally cast into a lake of fire
Hell cannot be literally cast into a lake of fire
The Beast which theoretically could be cast into a lake of fire cannot be understood as a literal beast. There is no such beast with seven heads and ten horns literally tormented in a lake of fire – it represents something else which will be destroyed.
The false prophet (which is another name for the two horned beast) is not a literal person – it represents apostate religion - something which cannot be literally tormented by fire.
The devil is not the fallen angel of Christian mythology but rather a symbol for the propensity to sin which resides within man both individually and collectively in human government and society, which cannot be literally cast into a lake of fire or tormented.
http://www.thisisyourbible.com/index.php?page=questions&task=show&mediaid=678
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28 Oct 14
2 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiter
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Indeed it is a symbolic book. Christ is not literally a four legged lamb. The symbol stands of Him as the Redeemer - "the Lamb of God".
But "signs" and symbols are used to portray plainer teaching which appears elsewhere in the Bible. And since we are told in plain words, for example -
" ... rest with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire, Rendering vengence to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength when He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed ..." (2 Thess. 1:7b-10a) - such a matter ALSO can be conveyed symbolically.
The combination of plain teaching plus symbolic sign pointing makes is hard to not understand what God is communicating.
I admit that it takes time and skill to determine what should be taken more as symbolic and what is to be taken as more literal. It is quite easy for someone to use symbolism as an excuse to not want to see certain things.
Sure, Death being thrown into the lake of fire, appears abstract and symbolic. However, there is not enough symbolism to reduce the dreadful communication that this lake of fire is only negative and to be kept out of at any cost.
The explicit teaching quite apart from symbolism is that eternal destruction is the vengence of God "upon those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ".
The symbolism therefore, if there is some in Revelation on this point, confirms the plain apostolic teaching.
If Revelation were to be understood literally then you might be correct. However, Revelation is a book of symbols.
I think the "understood literally" line of argument is something of a red herring. It should be understood at face value. The sign or the symbol should be taken at face value.
And a lake of fire, barring the precise physics or geography of such a thing, conveys something awful. And the excuse that nothing awful should be portrayed by a loving God is not reliable. To His enemies He will be awful.
If the punishment is terminated by annhilation than annhilation is not judgment but rather an act of mercy. If annhilation is an act of mercy then the Annhilationist should not boast that it is judgment from God.
If any torment of those sent to the lake of fire is temporary, than it is -
1.) Wrong for Jesus to portray it as never ending.
2.) Making the termination by annhilation into non-existence mercy rather than judgment.
There is not enough of the "symbolism" rationale in Revelation to take away the conveyance of the awfulness of being finally judged forever by God.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Why cannot eternal punishment ALSO be made known to John by a sign?
Saying that things are made known by signs in no guarantees that nothing perfectly dreadful could not be also made known by a sign.
I could write concerning the positive interpretation for hours everyday for two weeks from Revelation. I also could defend such interpretations with plain teaching to back it up. For the Bible interprets itself.
I am quite aware of Revelation 1:1. I cannot in a good conscience rationalize that "they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever" is made not true because things were made known to John by signs.
Of course a modernist could go down that road to the extent that Jesus as Son of God is not at all true because things were made known by signs. Or they could argue that He was not the One who became dead and behold alive forever, because things were made known to John by signs.
You other comments I may get to latter.
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28 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipLet me sum this up by agreeing to disagree... These verses that you mention may be interpreted as you seem to go.Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Indeed it is a symbolic book. Christ is not literally a four legged lamb. The symbol stands of Him as the Redeemer - [b]"the Lamb of God". ...[text shortened]... , because things were made known to John by signs.
You other comments I may get to latter.[/b]
But they do not have to be interpreted that way.
Forever can also mean forever separated, forever burned up, forever cast into darkness, meaning permanently destroyed, not necessarily a continual torture.
You say the word of God is infallible. I agree, but this is a book. It is a copy of a copy of a version. It is not the original word of God.
I believe we can strive to get back to the original, by rightly dividing the word of truth, but it is a lifetime process, trying to understand it all.
I also believe that you have to take into account the culture at the time these words were written. Greek mythology was very influential at the time of the writing. I am sorry, but I believe this mindset compromised the bible to a small degree.
A lot of the modern day bible correlates with Greek mythology.
Like I said, you can get back to the original intent and writing, but it takes hard study, hundreds of hours of study, prayer and diligence.
I do not claim to know it all, not even close. But this is one of the topics I strongly disagree with.
Here is a 1 and 1/2 hour video on this very topic that may or may not help you.
http://ourplacechurch.com/hell
29 Oct 14
Originally posted by checkbaiterSonhouse is an atheist and believes when he dies that is it. Anyone claiming to be a Christian and states that torment in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone forever and ever is the same as annihilation is agreeing with sonhouse.
Let me sum this up by agreeing to disagree... These verses that you mention may be interpreted as you seem to go.
But they [b]do not have to be interpreted that way.
Forever can also mean forever separated, forever burned up, forever cast into darkness, meaning permanently destroyed, not necessarily a continual torture.
You say the word of God i ...[text shortened]... 1/2 hour video on this very topic that may or may not help you.
http://ourplacechurch.com/hell[/b]
Sonhouse believes he can continue to sin and do what ever he wishes without fear because when he dies he will not know anything anyway. He has no fear of eternal torment because there isn't any according to his belief and those Christians that say he will just be destroyed like he believes anyway.
Why then should we even tell anyone that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom? They see wisdom as doing what it takes to get ahead in this present life rather than worrying about an unproven life after death.
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29 Oct 14
Originally posted by RJHindsI don't care what Sonhouse believes.
Sonhouse is an atheist and believes when he dies that is it. Anyone claiming to be a Christian and states that torment in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone forever and ever is the same as annihilation is agreeing with sonhouse.
Sonhouse believes he can continue to sin and do what ever he wishes without fear because when he dies he will not know anything any ...[text shortened]... takes to get ahead in this present life rather than worrying about an unproven life after death.
It does not change what the bible says, nor God's character.
An atheist will be thrown in the lake of fire and he will burn up and be turned to ashes, period.
Why then should we even tell anyone that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom? They see wisdom as doing what it takes to get ahead in this present life rather than worrying about an unproven life after death
Because the fear(reverence) of the Lord IS the beginning of wisdom.
I don't care how they view wisdom, It is the love of God, the goodness of God that leads man to repentance, not the dread of God.