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30 Oct 14
9 edits
Originally posted by checkbaitercheckbaiter you wrote:
Why do you keep addressing me as someone who believes in eternal torture? Haven't you been reading?
Have you noticed the irony? By eliminating the teaching of God as One who will cause someone to be punished with suffering forever, you may have assumed you version of the Almighty would gain easier acceptance. It does not.
Frustrating isn't it? You are lumped in with others who take the Scripture at face value about this.
There are many descriptions of the relationship between God and man in the Bible. God is revealed not only as Judge. God is revealed as
1.) Life itself
2.) Father to children
3.) House to dwellers
4.) King to reign
5.) Slave to come and die for others
6.) A Perfect Man
7.) A Shepherd
8.) Water to quench thirst
9.) Breath to impart life
10.) Bread to sustain
11.) Even crumbs under the table
12.) Water out of a smitten rock
11.) Wind
12.) Husband to a spouse
13.) Redeemer
14.) Savior
15.) Tower
16.) Fortress
17.) Light
18.) Wisdom
19.) Law Giver
20.) Forgiver
22.) Sustainer
23.) Architect
24.) Builder
25.) Lamb
26.) Dove
27.) Clothing
28.) Physician
29.) All-inclusive Good Land
All these themes of what God is to us are also presented and developed in the Bible. But some skeptics are fixated on "Torturer" threatening torture. It seems God as Judge is so hateful to them it is the only thing they can see.
In the 66 books of the Bible all these other aspects of God are revealed. But it seems that only ONE aspect is revealed - God as the torturing Judge extorting terror with threats.
Perhaps you thought by presenting a Judge that will not so punish you could eliminate the shame of association. But Jesus said His followers should not be ashamed of Him nor of His words:
New American Standard Bible
"For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."
King James Bible
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
This comment about (Mark 8:38) is not a trigger to argue OSAS or other subject matter. My only point is about the temptation to be "ashamed" of some aspect of what the Son of God spoke.
Among the many many aspects of God's being, a Judge is one important aspect. Yet it is only one of many characteristics. And tampering with it as "the lake of fire denier" does, doesn't accomplish making the Son's Gospel more welcome.
The one with a myopic fixation of this and only this truthful aspect of God's being overshadows any other angle of God's all-inclusive character.
Because they see God's only role as "The Torturer" there is no other issue. There is no other relationship seen. Their version of God insists that He not be one aspect of who He is - an Judge whose authority cannot be overturned.
30 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipYou are misrepresenting checkbaiter's position. Are you doing so deliberately, I wonder. He has not presented a God figure as "a Judge that will not so punish you"; checkbaiter has presented a God figure who will punish non-believers/sinners with death... "Death is forever, no afterlife, other than being resurrected for a short time and then die again by fire". Have you slipped up here about checkbaiter's stance [as I did a page or two ago] or is your falsehood a calculated one?
Perhaps you thought by presenting a Judge that will not so punish you could eliminate the shame of association.
30 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipBut then any look at the achievements of government policy in Germany and any positive aspects there might have been in the relationship between the state and its citizens 1933-1945 is overshadowed by the ideology and implementation of the Holocaust. It's hardly surprising, is it? The notion of God that you peddle is debased by the ideology of eternal torture and the perversion of the concept of "justice" it rests upon. Jesus telling mankind to 'love thy neighbour', and such like, pales into insignificance in the shadow of the unimaginable atrocity of what you worship.
The one with a myopic fixation of this and only this truthful aspect of God's being overshadows any other angle of God's all-inclusive character.
Because they see God's only role as "The Torturer" there is no other issue. There is no other relationship seen. Their version of God insists that He not be one aspect of who He is - an Judge whose authority cannot be overturned.
30 Oct 14
Originally posted by checkbaiterThen why are you here? Why bother to preach? Why bother to contend for the truth? Why bother with anything? Why don't we all just have coffee mornings and watch Jesus of Nazareth a few more times.
I know Div, but God can take care of Himself.
Stop being offended by conflict.
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30 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonship
checkbaiter you wrote:
[b] Why do you keep addressing me as someone who believes in eternal torture? Haven't you been reading?
Have you noticed the irony? By eliminating the teaching of God as One who will cause someone to be punished with suffering forever, you may have assumed you version of the Almighty would gain easier a ...[text shortened]... insists that He not be one aspect of who He is - an Judge whose authority cannot be overturned.[/b]Isn't forever dead punishment enough?
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Originally posted by divegeesterok, I suppose I was speaking rhetorically.
Then why are you here? Why bother to preach? Why bother to contend for the truth? Why bother with anything? Why don't we all just have coffee mornings and watch Jesus of Nazareth a few more times.
Stop being offended by conflict.
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30 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonship
checkbaiter you wrote:
[b] Why do you keep addressing me as someone who believes in eternal torture? Haven't you been reading?
Have you noticed the irony? By eliminating the teaching of God as One who will cause someone to be punished with suffering forever, you may have assumed you version of the Almighty would gain easier a ...[text shortened]... insists that He not be one aspect of who He is - an Judge whose authority cannot be overturned.[/b]I am not looking for approval from anyone. I am not taking sides or trying to be accepted, I am on whatever side the Lord is on.
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Originally posted by sonship
checkbaiter you wrote:
[b] Why do you keep addressing me as someone who believes in eternal torture? Haven't you been reading?
Have you noticed the irony? By eliminating the teaching of God as One who will cause someone to be punished with suffering forever, you may have assumed you version of the Almighty would gain easier a ...[text shortened]... insists that He not be one aspect of who He is - an Judge whose authority cannot be overturned.[/b]
All these themes of what God is to us are also presented and developed in the Bible. But some skeptics are fixated on "Torturer" threatening torture. It seems God as Judge is so hateful to them it is the only thing they can see.
Yes, here you are partly correct. God is life itself, God is Gracious and kind.
That is why to have this belief of eternal suffering diminishes the holy and impeccable beauty of God.
It puts a stain on his character, it misrepresents Him.
By the way, I believe "eternal torture" as you put it, is reprehensible to God too, even more so, since he is the one being accused by your interpretation of the holy scriptures..
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30 Oct 14
1 edit
Originally posted by FMF
You are misrepresenting checkbaiter's position.
No I am not. You are misrepresenting my position in that post as I will shortly demonstrate.
Are you doing so deliberately, I wonder.
There is no need to "wonder" because deliberately or undeliberately, I am not misrepresenting his position.
He has not presented a God figure as "a Judge that will not so punish you";
You misunderstand what I mean by "a Judge that will not so punish you".
"So punish you" there meant so punish you with eternal suffering.
And Checkbaiter has indeed presented God as a Judge who will not so punish you with everlasting suffering.
So you misunderstood my phraseology and eagerly jumped at that misunderstanding to "wonder" why I "misrepresented" him.
checkbaiter has presented a God figure who will punish non-believers/sinners with death...
Correct. But as far as eternal suffering he has presented God as "not so" punishing in that manner.
Am I right?
Have you slipped up here about checkbaiter's stance [as I did a page or two ago] or is your falsehood a calculated one?
Nope, no slip up. There was no falsehood in my description of his position.
I understand Annhilationism quite well.
You erred in misunderstanding what I meant - checkbaiter believes that God will not so punish with an unending suffering, ie. lake of fire.
You see? This is why I am often verbose, to avoid misunderstanding. That time my conciseness of expression led to your misunderstanding with a charge of possible dishonesty and deliberate misrepresentation on my part.
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30 Oct 14
Originally posted by checkbaiter
Yes, here you are partly correct. God is life itself, God is Gracious and kind.
Absolutely.
His mercy does endure forever.
But we as believers are exhorted to come forward TO Him to RECEIVE mercy.
Jubilee Bible 2000
Let us, therefore, come boldly unto the throne of his grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
King James 2000 Bible
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Will ALL come forward to God, boldly through Christ's salvation, to obtain, to receive mercy ? Sadly, no.
That is why [you?] to have this belief of eternal suffering diminishes the holy and impeccable beauty of God.
There are many places in the Bible that associate the holiness of God and a flame of fire. Do you recall the story of Aaron's two sons ?
Excuse me. I have to stop writing immediately.
Favor - please let me finish this reply before you continue.
I may need three hours.
30 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipOK. I understand now.
You misunderstand what I mean by "a Judge that will not so punish you".
[b]"So punish you" there meant so punish you with eternal suffering.
And Checkbaiter has indeed presented God as a Judge who will not so punish you with everlasting suffering.[/b]
30 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipIt would seem so. Remember, I think your moral compass is entirely wrecked by your imagination and your disgusting notions of so-called "justice" and "love". And you misrepresent me as a matter of routine when we discuss things. So if I got the wrong end of the stick about what you meant about checkbaiter, so be it. I understand now.
So you misunderstood my phraseology and eagerly jumped at that misunderstanding to "wonder" why I "misrepresented" him.
30 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonshipWell you misrepresent me all the time and some of your straw men arguments are undeniably dishonest. But I see now the significance of the word "so" in your earlier post and I get what you were saying to him.
That time my conciseness of expression led to your misunderstanding with a charge of possible dishonesty and deliberate misrepresentation on my part.
30 Oct 14
Originally posted by FMFThis post of mine was cock-eyed. sonship was not misrepresenting checkbaiter's stance on 'divine punishment'. Apologies to sonship.
You are misrepresenting checkbaiter's position. Are you doing so deliberately, I wonder. He has not presented a God figure as "a Judge that will not so punish you"; checkbaiter has presented a God figure who will punish non-believers/sinners with death... "Death is forever, no afterlife, other than being resurrected for a short time and then die again by fire". ...[text shortened]... e about checkbaiter's stance [as I did a page or two ago] or is your falsehood a calculated one?